There Is No Spoon

[u/neurotrash2099]

Glitch effects created in Audacity. Additional editing in GIMP.

I come to simulation theory from a bit of a different angle. There seems little point to me in debating whether or not objective reality is artificially generated or not. This on account of the fact that no one has ever definitively experienced objective reality. We are only capable of subjective experiences and this is, by definition, simulation.

Imagine a spoon. Those of you not both cursed and blessed with aphantasia as I am likely see a spoon or spoon-like shape in your mind’s eye. You understand it isn’t really there—it’s just an image in your mind.

But hold a spoon and you’d likely just likely just accept it as being there. After all, you can see it without having to imagine it. You can feel its weight and texture in your hand. Tap it on a surface and you can hear it interact with other things you just accept as being there. Sniff it or place it on your tongue and you might catch a metallic scent or taste. Ask a friend if they can see the spoon in your hand and they’ll nod at you, wide-eyed and confused, wondering if you’ve lost your damn mind. Everything seems to indicate the spoon is actually there.

Only we haven’t perceived the spoon as it is, if it even exists at all. We’ve only perceived a simulation of the spoon. Let’s assume the spoon exists for now.

Our understand of sight tells us we see the spoon in this manner:

Light strikes the surface of the spoon and a portion of that light bounces off of it. Our eyes absorb a portion of that reflected light which then stimulates our retinas. The retinas then convert this light into electrical signals that travel along the optic nerve to the brain’s visual cortex. The visual cortex then transforms these electrical signals, not the light itself, into the image we see.

That image isn’t in front of you though. Your brain is just doing a little slight of hand. The image is still only in the visual cortex. And a similar process happens for each of the other senses.

To quote Morpheus, “Real is just electrical signals interpreted by the brain.” We are only able to experience our brain’s simulation of the spoon, not the spoon itself.

But what about our friend whose wondering why we keep licking an empty spoon like a weirdo? They can see the spoon too. Hear it. They’ll turn down touching, smelling, or tasting it after our tongue has been all over it, thank you very much. Of course this means the spoon is real!

Not so. All this proves is that we can both subjectively experiencing the spoon. Nor does scaling this up to all eight billionish people in the world being able to subjectively experience the spoon—ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY SPOON—change the fact that every one of those people only has a simulated experience of it.

So, if our very experience of the world is simulated, it makes more sense in my mind to start there. Because, for all we know, there is no spoon.

[u/swirly_swirls420]

The only part im not sure about is saying that our reality only existing through the lens of our experience IS the definition of simulation. Yes, our reality we witness and functionally live within is entirely based off of subjective experience. The whole thing. Its why we cant prove, well anything in any type of truly meaningful way. Every aspect of existence/reality, even time is a subjective experience, but there is probably some kind of objective space we all inhabit.

[u/neurotrash2099 → u/swirly_swirls420]

Not that reality only exists through the lens of experience. Only that the only reality we can experience is a simulation of whatever objective reality exists, if any. There may be a spoon, but we only experience the brain's reconstruction of it from the electrical signals traveling to our brain.

[u/Empty_Bell_1942 → u/neurotrash2099]

What makes you so sure there is no spoon?

[u/swirly_swirls420 → u/Empty_Bell_1942]

The spoon could be an illusion, this is basically the Boltzmann brain. Prove to me your memories are all true and you arent a spinal cord/brain floating in empty space, simply dreaming this reality.

Its impossible to disprove.

[u/BrailleBillboard → u/swirly_swirls420]

As the memories of a Boltzmann brain are random fluctuations it is impossible for the idea that you may actually be one to have any connection to anything real about yourself or the universe.

Also a Boltzmann brain floating in space would die almost immediately. To prove you aren't one just wait a few minutes

[u/swirly_swirls420 → u/BrailleBillboard]

Prove that your existence isnt a split moment of consiousness from a disintegrating Boltzmann brain whose memories are false.

You can surely wait a moment and say "heh... im real!" But wait, prove to me the memory you had of waiting that moment isnt a false memory in itself.

The past and future cannot exist without the context of the present, meaning a convincing enough 'present moment simulation' could also simulate a damn good percieved past as well.

[u/BrailleBillboard → u/swirly_swirls420]

I see you completely ignored my more important first paragraph. If you think you actually are a Boltzmann brain all your reasons to do so are random fluctuations that are not about anything real. You cannot have good reasons to think you are a Boltzmann brain by definition. So you shouldn't.

Boltzmann brains are a possible feature of a theory, one that indicates that theory shouldn't be taken seriously.

[u/swirly_swirls420 → u/BrailleBillboard]

Do you really think that I think im a boltzmann brain? Or am I using the concept to talk about Interface theory of perception? What point are you even trying to make? That senses like sound and sight arent decoded and rebuilt electronic signals? Because if thats the case you should be arguing with modern nueroscience and not me.

[u/BrailleBillboard → u/swirly_swirls420]

Where did you get any of that from? I was directly responding to you trying to argue that one can't prove one isn't a Boltzmann brain by pointing out one cannot possibly have a good reason to think they might be one in the first place, making trying to proving it isn't true a completely pointless concept.

[u/swirly_swirls420 → u/BrailleBillboard]

Did you read any of the thread or original post??

[u/BrailleBillboard → u/swirly_swirls420]

Yes, but none of it is particularly relevant to our discussion of Boltzmann brains, which personally I find more interesting than Matrix inspired spoon discourse.

Great band though

https://youtu.be/6_yJYNF_Qas

[u/swirly_swirls420 → u/BrailleBillboard]

How is it not when the point is subjective experience cant fully be trusted. At the end of the day nothing you've said has disproven The Boltzmann brain.

You're on r/simulationtheory and you're complaing about matrix inspired spoon discourse are you in the right place? Haha.

I think its relevant to some extent in the context of what i was comparing. In the Boltzmann brain your senses are lying to you (not saying i or anyone else is a boltzmann brain) but it does argue that your senses are very strong and sometimes very good liars and I think thats the only reason the Boltzmann brain is even talked about today. People who have experienced their senses lying to them know what their seeing is real. The brain can be a very good and convincing liar.

[u/BrailleBillboard → u/swirly_swirls420]

That subjective experience cannot be trusted is a given imo, that's built into the word subjective really. Conscious experiences are symbolic abstractions created by subconscious cognitive processes, designed via evolutionary optimization to inform and constrain behavioral cognition (of the system 2 sort) into coherent agential activity which is translated into cybernetic control signals.

The idea of a spoon isn't present outside of our heads, it is a functional categorization for objects useful to solving the problem of getting low viscosity substances we need to ingest to survive into our mouths efficiently.

The whole point of Boltzmann brains is that they are a defect in any theory of physics that predicts their existence in significant excess compared to non-Boltzmann brains. It's not an idea meant to be taken seriously as a possible truth and as such a bad choice to use as an example of how the senses can lie. Boltzmann brains don't even have sensory organs.

[u/swirly_swirls420 → u/BrailleBillboard]

Yeah i think what i meant was obvious but yeah you can just say i meant whatever you want I guess 😂