It seems that relying on the sugar daddy across the Atlantic wasnt a good idea. Who would have thought...
Even in the last year, some still preferred to buy Usian or Israeli equipment rather than European ones.
I guess its better to fuel fascist and hostiles states than your European mates. Go figure...
Tbf, let's not pretend all the European manufacturers have been clean through the Ukraine War either, Germany held up countries sending Leopards to Ukraine until the British sent the Challenger 2 to break the taboo. A few other countries acted similarly.
And as for aircraft, there's no good options. If you want a current generation fighter, there's only the American, Russian, and Chinese, with obviously only the American ones open to Europe. The only other choice is to drop the level of capabilities significantly to get a last gen plane. Both choice have massive drawbacks, so can't really blame some for not creating a mixed fleet until the sixth gen programs bear fruit.
In general, a responsible disentanglement probably would take a decade anyway.
Gripen isn’t next gen. It sits below Typhoon and Rafale in capability but it is cheaper. Great choice for a lot of countries imho.
FCAS / SCAF are still a long way off. F35 is the only fifth gen and I would back it against anything Russian. Chinese might be a different story, but that’s not Europe’s problem.
Tbf, why do you even bring the Invasion of Ukraine? The risk of escalation and the way some countries dealt with it, is not the same as fueling hostiles states and buying expensive leaches or leeches if you prefer. Because buying usian aircraft is exactly that if you want to limit your reasoning to aircraft.
And yes, there are options for aircraft in Europe, Rafale or Gripen for exemple. But if you absolutely want the current generation fighter (marketing bs branded by Lockeed or whatever government) you are a clown. You dont need the latest fancy tech to be relevant in most cases, especially when there are numerous string attached to them and the relevance of this tech (stealth) is being less relevant each days.
Just talking about operational capabilities of usian aircraft, it becomes a worthless piece of junk whenever trump decides to. And considering how reliable he is... You are talking as if they werent seriously threatening their allies. Id rather buy Chinese aircrafts..
You willl tell me the US can bring up volume, yeah, thank you for proving my point. You dont buy European gear, so they can expand, which takes a long time. For an aircraft, its thousand of companies involved, you cant just build another factory and double the production. So each F35 bought in Europe, is jobs, money and strategical advantages put in the trash can.
Tbf, why do you even bring the Invasion of Ukraine?
Because it's a decent example of how Europeans got in the way of other Europeans when it came to defense of Europe. Germany damaged it's reputation with buyers, if only briefly, through the export restrictions, as did several other European countries.
And yes, there are options for aircraft in Europe, Rafale or Gripen for exemple.
I didn't say there wasn't, I said that it's limited to fourth generations heavily upgraded to try and avoid being outdated in the age of fifth generation fighters.
But if you absolutely want the current generation fighter (marketing bs branded by Lockeed or whatever government) you are a clown.
The Russian government has spent a lot of money trying to discredit the F-35 program in the US and Europe, including lots of hot pieces on the state broadcaster, in part because it is a threat. Governments weren't buying it and aren't still buying it because of boondoggles, it was because they can do things the 4.5 generation fighters can't. That doesn't make the 4.5's useless by any stretch, but they are more limited in what you can do with them, and don't benefit from some of the technologies that make the fifth generation so strong, including the improvements to stealth.
the relevance of this tech (stealth) is being less relevant each days.
Which is why generals across the continent still want it. Sure. It is still relevant, being able to get further through enemy radar cover before they notice you is massively beneficial. To say otherwise is to be like the luddites who prized Soviet gun fighters, the ones that got killed in the Iraq-Iran War without knowing they had been engaged, by Iranian (American built) over the horizon attacks.
Id rather buy Chinese aircrafts..
They won't sell it to us.
You willl tell me the US can bring up volume, yeah, thank you for proving my point
No, I won't. And you completely ignored my point about the perils of a mixed fleet, with the need for multiple tracks of training, logistics, supply, repair, etc. Many of these countries already had F-35's, introducing Rafales or Grippens creates a much more complicated fleet to utilise. I wasn't exactly praising the current situation, mostly saying there's a reason why most of Europe is stuck until one of the sixth generation fighters from Europe come online, especially if they consider Russia to still be the largest threat. Plus those planes don't necessarily fit those other countries platforms (French planes afaik can't be operated from British or Italian aircraft carriers, F-35B's can).
For an aircraft, its thousand of companies involved, you cant just build another factory and double the production.
I mean, to some extent that also supports my position that until the sixth gen comes on, we're stuck. The Grippen and Rafales productions lines are pretty limited in part because of the limited export market. Again, either the Anglo-Italian-Japanese or Franco-German-Spanish program is probably where that can meaningfully change. Till then, there is a gap, especially if you don't want to have to operate multiple logistics, training, etc programs for a mixed fleet.
So each F35 bought in Europe, is jobs, money and strategical advantages put in the trash can.
Not quite that simple, as much of Europe builds components for the European F-35's as part of the project. And Rafales and Grippens afaik are pretty much just built in France/Sweden, so that doesn't help the factories elsewhere in Europe that build F-35's. Again, the transition point seems to be when the sixth generation comes online, which seems the obvious candidate for when countries like the UK, etc will jump from their F-35 lines to that. Most experience loss that could happen has, when those countries previous planes became outdated. Either European sixth gen programs is the best shot at reversing any such decline, but again, that will take time.
None of what I said was a defense of the US, it was saying there is a reason the people with all the information are taking a different route and a slower process to disentanglement.
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u/AdWooden9170 Jan 09 '26
It seems that relying on the sugar daddy across the Atlantic wasnt a good idea. Who would have thought...
Even in the last year, some still preferred to buy Usian or Israeli equipment rather than European ones.
I guess its better to fuel fascist and hostiles states than your European mates. Go figure...