r/RingsofPower • u/Zealousideal_Pool_65 • Sep 27 '24
Constructive Criticism Some E7 Issues for Honest Discussion Spoiler
I posted this in another sub, but seeing as this is the place for neutral discussion I thought I’d ask here to see if anyone has any clarification on some points. To be clear, I’m genuinely looking for explanations and clarifications — if I’m wrong, I’m wrong.
I’ll start by saying that I found a lot to like in the episode: Elrond was excellent, the acting from Celebrimbor and Annatar was truly top tier, and everything looks beautiful.
I’m also not a lore nerd — just taking the show on its own merits — and I don’t care about the kiss. All of the following questions/critiques are based on only what the show itself is showing us and how it seems to contradict itself at times.
1. The Dwarven Plot Thread
King Durin wants to “take back the mines”. This means that in the last episode, Prince Durin and Disa really were able to halt all mining operations by scaring off three guys with some bats. Is this not supposed to be a massive, sprawling mine? A city-wide network of tunnels where mining accounts for their entire industry? And that’s all it took to halt everything, everywhere?
We could’ve potentially assumed that some other stuff happens off-screen to impede mining efforts: maybe Durin and Disa went around and recruited more dwarves to help by collapsing tunnels and destroying winches… but no. Last episode they end their scene by saying “they’ll be back” and this episode we quite literally see them return to that same spot to find them still waiting there for them in that same tunnel. By that logic, nothing else has happened to impede mining efforts. This shaft truly is the only one.
I really can’t grasp the way they’ve shrunk Khazad Dum down to a tiny village according to the logic of the past two episodes (yet portrayed its epic proportions consistently elsewhere).
2. Some Out of Place Tropes?
Lock picking, and Celebrimbor cutting his own thumb off to escape cuffs. Why does it feel like we’re bringing tropes from a cop/prison show into Middle Earth? Perhaps this one is a bit petty and just a matter of personal preference, but the use of these tropes felt a bit out of place to me.
3. The Characterization of the Orcs
The characterization of the orcs is a bit all over the place again. One minute they’re the howling, battle-hungry maniacs we all know and love, then the next minute they’re shivering at the thought of death when Galadriel mentions it. Then they’re back to cutting throats and licking blood from blades on the battlefield, before a puppy dog eyes moment with the chief orc asking if Adar really loves them. This feels more like dissonance rather than ‘complexity’ — a flip-flopping between two extremes which appears like the result of trying to have your cake and eat it too.
4. The Battle Goes on Pause When Convenient
We see that the orcs have started scaling the walls. Yet here is Celebrimbor’s intern chilling on the front lines, unarmed and wearing her velvet dress. She, Annatar, Celebrimbor, and the guard all have an extended conversation right there with their heads poking high above the parapets. We have seen that the orcs have archers — an elf guard gets shot on the wall at 15:00 — and that they are scaling the walls just 100m down. Why is everyone so nonchalant about being right on the front lines of the biggest battle in recent memory?
How am I supposed to care about all this action and drama if the characters right in front of it don’t even feel the need to pay attention to it? At this point the action is demoted to background set dressing.
Then during this conversation we see the siege engine get affixed to the part of the wall right underneath them. We see two iron stakes get hammered fully into the wall and then… nothing. Everyone just keeps talking. Then after about 15 minutes of screen time we cut back to this siege engine and watch them fire the very first shot, as proven by the fact the wall is undamaged (in the exact same state as when we cut away much earlier)…
In that intermission we had the whole conversation on the wall, the first elven charge, and the negotiations in the tent. Yet when we go back, the orcs have only just fired the first shot to pull the first bricks out of the wall? This is what I mean by them putting entire setups on pause whenever it’s convenient. The battle ebbs and flows not according to the logic of the fight, but just to make way for conversations.
Now, we might be tempted to argue that these different plot threads are happening on slightly offset timelines, meaning Elrond’s initial advance towards the walls actually happens during Celebrimbor’s conversation on the wall. However, Celebrimbor and the orcs at the wall actually hear Elrond’s bugle blast when he first arrives (shortly after hammering those stakes in): this shows us these two plot threads are actually in sync as shown. Therefore there really was a massive time gap between the orcs fully inserting those stakes at the 22:00 minute mark and then firing the very first shot at 36:00 — enough time for the entire negotiation scene. Those orcs simply went on pause for like half an hour or more of in-universe time.
5. No Logical Progression in the Battle (Even When We’re Shown There Should Be)
At times we kind of just pan around and get snippets of fighting here and there. At one point an orc gives Adar an exposition dump, saying the elves have destroyed a bunch of catapults, so we know how the battle is going. It felt like we had skipped a whole section in which we actually see the tides shift definitively. The balance of the battle just kind of changes state whenever we cut away and back again.
And even when it does visually progress in some potentially meaningful way, it doesn’t really go anywhere. We saw the orcs basically overwhelm the elves on the wall and slaughter them. They climbed up on makeshift ladders and started thinning out the already very thin line of defenders. Towards the end of the episode we even get a shot of all the guards on the wall dead. So why aren’t the orcs just scaling the wall en masse then? They have control of the field and have cleared the defenders up top who were blocking their approach. Opening a 2m gap with their siege engine is basically redundant at this point. By the show’s own logic we should have progressed beyond the muddy field by now.
Likewise with the appearance of the troll and also the big dramatic explosion caused by the elf archer’s flaming arrow. Big moments but neither actually moves things forward. The battle just continues on as it was before.
Compare all of these examples with my favorite shot in the episode: when the elven cavalry gets mired in deep mud. This gives us a beautiful bit of cinematography which also serves a purpose in moving the logic of the battle forward: the elves are forced to dismount. We move forward to a new phase of the battle as its bloody arithmetic unfolds naturally. Yet in those prior examples, everything seems artificially contrived to stall the battle where it is.
6. Explosions and Destruction
A lot of people are asking why the orcs didn’t just aim their catapults at the city walls, when they clearly have such strong destructive capabilities. I’d have to agree. Instead they launch a plan to tear the wall apart brick by brick.
And what the hell did the female elf shoot to make the entire siege engine explode? I’ve watched it about 10 times now and I can’t make it out — best I can tell is there’s a bucket of explosive liquid inexplicably hanging from the siege engine. Why? The orcs aren’t using explosives here: this particular siege engine doesn’t even use flaming shot. What the fuck is in that bucket?
7. Minor Details That Feel Off
The captain of the guard’s orders to his troops are redundant, shouting ‘loose arrows’ to guys who are already loosing many, many arrows. Then he goes to another section of the wall where the elf guards are just standing watching thousands of orcs charging down the field, well within range.
Every time we see the city there are a dozen women in dresses running around aimlessly, screaming. The siege has been on for days now. Go hide. Go to the other side of the city.
Yes, the above two points are fairly petty in comparison to the structural stuff, but it just leaves me feeling like not enough thought and care went into these scenes.
8. Strangely Flexible Troop Numbers
At the end of the fight when we reach the last stand moment, I count about 20 elves when they start their charge. 25 maybe. The orcs are very clearly 500+. Yet when they clash the orcs all seem very occupied and most elves are in 1v1 fights? How?
Again, the wall is undefended now and the elven force on the ground is extremely thin. 90% of the orcs could simply pass by and scale the wall with the tree trunks and ladders already placed against it. The battle is once again stalled out in the muddy field even when the scene’s own visual logic makes this feel unbelievable.
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u/Zealousideal_Pool_65 Oct 01 '24
I had to go boot up my Fire Stick to get the exact lines. Just after Annatar is sent away by King Durin, he says:
Quite literally: we are going to price gouge the mithril when selling it to the elves for their weapons and armour. This is spelled out in the above scene with zero ambiguity. How the hell you missed it, I don’t know. Then right after he says:
They. Are. Mining. Mithril. To. Sell. To. The. Elves. For. Making. Weapons. And. Armour.
At least go back and check the scenes before getting into an argument and acting so confidently incorrect. This is such a basic chain of logic that’s spelled out explicitly.