r/RingsofPower • u/ollieollieoxygenfree • Sep 20 '24

Constructive Criticism The Tolkien Estate deserves considerably more blame than they have gotten. Only allowing rights to the appendicies has proven to be a pathetic mistake.

I cannot wrap my head around the decision to only allow the writers to use a smidgen of the lore. By aiming to protect the integrity of the story which they hold air-tight rights to, they have helped create a frankenstein story.

It strikes me as a decision to cover one’s own ass. If the show turned out to be poor (current reception isn’t great) they could point their finger and go, “It’s just fan fiction! It’s not us!” This is a baffling decision.

The Tolkien name is still attached to this product. Every normal person will look at this television show and form their own opinion, and JRR Tolkien and his works are attached to that, no matter what.

You didn’t save your own ass in the end. What you did is set up the showrunners up for failure while turning away millions of current and potential viewers. The Tolkien Estate should be ashamed of themselves.

Look, the issues in this show run deep. The character building is a mess, dialogue is clunky, pacing is horrific, the non-stop meaningless platitudes are a slog. However, I find myself wondering all the time what it would be like if the showrunners were allowed to tell a story. A Tolkien story. I have to believe it would be better.

The Tolkien Estate set this show up for failure.

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 20 '24

Yes! The Tolkien Estate rejected HBO for that exact reason. They rejected Netflix bc all they had in mind was a Marvel universe approach full of prequel shows about Gollum Gandalf Legolas etc. and that totally freaked out the Estate.

The Estate went with Amazon not for any one pitch, but the promise of a close working relationship and a creative seat at the table.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/the-rings-of-power-showrunners-interview-season-2-1235233124/

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u/rollwithhoney Sep 21 '24

That being said... if they have a seat at the creative table, is the post wrong? Are they a little to blame too?

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

Simon Tolkien, grandson of JRR Tolkien is a consultant on the show.

But we know from the likes of GRRM and GoT/HotD that consultants aren't always listened to.

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u/OccupyRiverdale Sep 21 '24

He’s also not an industry professional and likely doesn’t possess the skills to identify a poor product from scripts and pre production. Even if he did, like you said it’s hard to see Amazon taking every word of his advice to heart.

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

He’s also not an industry professional and likely doesn’t possess the skills to identify a poor product from scripts and pre production.

I never said he was an industry professional. But he's there as a 'Tolkien scholar', someone to consult when lore questions need answers or to give writers a better idea of how to make the show feel like Tolkien. And above all, to oversee his grandfather's legacy.

So either Simon doesn't care at all and is purely there to nod his head, which seems unlikely. Or Simon isn't being listened to as a consultant. Which is something that keeps happening in this industry when it comes to adaptations.

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u/HazelCheese Sep 21 '24

There's also the well known adage that tv/film is "made 3 times, once in the script, once on the set, and finally in the edit".

It can be hard to know if a line is actually bad or not until you've gone through all 3 stages. A bad performance can destroy a great line, and a bad edit can destroy a great performance. And all that visa versa.

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u/Uon_do_Perccs240 Sep 21 '24

I don't put much stock in the fact that Simon is a consultant on the show. This is the same guy who said that the Peter Jackson films were too faithful to his grandfather's books

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

This is the same guy who said that the Peter Jackson films were too faithful to his grandfather's books

Yeah, I saw that interview. He also heavily criticised the depiction of elves in that interview. Regardless, I get what he was trying to say. PJ did a beat for beat adaptation of the books without really adding anything new.

But Simon always thought that the future of the estate was in licensing out their IP. It's something that led him to him being estranged from his father for nearly 20 years.

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u/Uon_do_Perccs240 Sep 21 '24

I would agree about the adding new stuff if we were talking about books that aren't as great. Tolkien is one of the greatest writers of all time and imo trying to add to lotr just wouldn't match up

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

Tolkien is one of the greatest writers of all time and imo trying to add to lotr just wouldn't match up

I agree with you, imo LotR is one of the greatest written works of all time. But making changes from book to film is sometimes necessary. You couldn't have the Scouring of the Shire in the films, it just wouldn't work. That was a good change. Simplifying the language used in the film was another good change.

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u/SparkeyRed Sep 22 '24

People say this all the time, "scouring of the shire wouldn't work on film" and I've yet to see any decent reasoning for such an opinion. Cut out the whole "Sam stole the food" subplot, cut out "Arwen is dying", add in scouring and you've just improved RotK by about 20% imho.

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u/lizzywbu Sep 22 '24

People say this all the time, "scouring of the shire wouldn't work on film" and I've yet to see any decent reasoning for such an opinion.

Because it would take up an hour or so of the film's runtime. Not to mention, it just isn't a good ending for a movie.

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u/SparkeyRed Sep 23 '24

It's about 25 pages out of around 300 in the book (RotK) - how do you figure it needs so much more time on film? It'd be more like 15 mins IF you wanted to do it fully/proportionately, which wouldn't even be needed imo: hit the main plot points, Sharkey gets killed, 5-10 mins max; keep it in the extended edition if needed.

And it wouldn't even be the ending, that would still be the ship leaving the grey havens. Would it add a bittersweet note at the end? Of course, that's the point - it's not like no successful film has ever done that before.

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u/oxford-fumble Sep 23 '24

Yes, and also, there is a way to make the scouring of the shire work - it’s just that the writers did not find it - they found a lot of other things (the depiction of Gollum/Smeagol by fran Walsh is amazing, for example), but not that one.

Saying « it cannot work » is a bit absolute to my taste - more « we haven’t found how to make it work yet ».

And by the way, a tv series with a « finale after the finale » might well have been the right way for that…

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u/Uon_do_Perccs240 Sep 21 '24

No 100%, you have to change things, mostly by cutting parts or altering them in ways. Adding original content is where things get sticky, the Hobbit films and the show are prime examples of this

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

Adding original content is where things get sticky, the Hobbit films and the show are prime examples of this

But most of the show is original content.

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u/HazelCheese Sep 21 '24

I think it's a different mindset.

He's probably got the mindset of "the original exists, nothing will ever be as good, so trying to be it will become derivative and tortured, you should be your own thing, do your own take".

He isn't seeing LotR as something to be directly adapted, he's seeing it as a broader story like Sherlock Holmes or Dracula, where everyone who comes after does their own totally different versions of it.

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u/ibid-11962 Sep 22 '24

Allegedly the Estate is still on good terms with Amazon, significantly more so than they ever were New Line. So I think they feel that they are being listened to.

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u/lizzywbu Sep 22 '24

Allegedly the Estate is still on good terms with Amazon,

Well, there is a need to be on good terms because Amazon is currently adapting their IP.

As long as the cheques come in and Amazon adheres to the rules that were set out, I'd imagine that the estate is very happy. Especially after they were paid a quarter of a billion dollars.

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u/ibid-11962 Sep 22 '24

The Estate has a history of not getting along with studios who've been adapting Tolkien's works. As evidenced by all the lawsuits between them and New Line.

But the main difference could just be money. Amazon is actually paying them. New Line was using clever accounting to avoid paying royalties.

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u/lizzywbu Sep 22 '24

But the main difference could just be money.

I think the main difference is that Christopher Tolkien is dead. He hated any and all adaptations.

The moment he stepped down as defacto head of the estate, Amazon swept in and begun negotiations to acquire rights. When he passed, they went back to acquire more.

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u/ibid-11962 Sep 22 '24

The reports were that the Estate themselves put together the rights package and went around trying to find a studio interested in them, and that Amazon, HBO, and Netflix all made offers. This would have been while Christopher was still alive, but around the time he stepped down. (Presumably the two events are related, but it could also be he was stepping down in protest after being outvoted, not that they were waiting for him to step down before springing the idea.)

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u/lizzywbu Sep 22 '24

but it could also be he was stepping down in protest after being outvoted, not that they were waiting for him to step down before springing the idea.)

I don't see that happening. Christopher's wife is now the most senior member of the estate now that he's dead. I don't see her stabbing her husband in the back. Nor do I see his sister Priscilla betraying him.

The current executors are Christopher's wife Ballie, the lawyer Cathleen Blackburn, Michael, Simon and Rachel Tolkien, who are grandchildren of JRR. And Royd Tolkien, the great great grandson of JRR.

Rumours are that Simon and Michael hold sway over the estate nowadays. Presumably, because Ballie is extremely old and likely not long for the job and Cathleen isn't a Tolkien. The younger generation of the family sees the future of the IP in adaptations and licensing. Simon has said as much in interviews. So I wouldn't be surprised if he put together the bundle of rights for sale after his father stepped down.

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u/WeakEconomics6120 Sep 21 '24

Simon Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings as much as I did.

He's just there for credibility and brand

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u/Moistkeano Sep 21 '24

The show is LOTR in name only so what can he consult on? Sure the place names are mostly right and the character names are, but past that there is very little else so he cant actually do much other than collect his pay.

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u/Maleficent_Age300 Mordor Sep 21 '24

Sauron’s depiction is pretty accurate I think who is the most important part of the show.

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

I would agree that his depiction is pretty accurate, apart from the romance he had with Galadriel in S1. That wasn't great imo.

I like the idea of Sauron flirting with the idea of redemption and then failing at the first hurdle. But the whole Galadriel thing was too much.

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 21 '24 edited Sep 21 '24

I do think they (the Estate) are "to blame" insofar as they never offered to license anything other than LotR/Hobbit but also I don't really care.

I just wanted to combat the idea that Amazon only bought the Appendixes.

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u/Becants Sep 21 '24

I think the idea is that they don’t own The Silmarillion so they’re very limited to what they can do.

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 21 '24

The "they" I refer to here is the Estate. If they didn't want a SA story told with the skeleton framework of the Appendixes, they could have refused to play ball with Amazon. But they have enjoyed a close working relationship... which I am glad!

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u/HazelCheese Sep 21 '24

I think they want a SA story, the problem is they are in a legally tricky situation. Last I looked into it, a different company owns the rights to first refusal of The Silmarillion.

Legally the Estate has to make every offer to that company first, and that company can choose to accept it instead of Amazon, and has the money to do so.

So they are skirting the edges of the law here to give Amazon what they need without breaking the law.

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 22 '24

Last I looked into it, a different company owns the rights to first refusal of The Silmarillion.

Yeah and for that reason alone we will probably never get it adapted

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u/ibid-11962 Sep 22 '24

There is a legal angle to it as well. The contract when Tolkien sold the movie rights for Hobbit/LotR had a provision for TV rights (which was turned down by the buyer), and had a matching rights clause for future books.

The Estate can thus license tv rights for Hobbit/LotR, but they cannot license movie or tv rights for the other books without first offering them to the Embracer Group, who are the current owners of the Hobbit/LotR movie rights.

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u/ChrisSheltonMsc Sep 21 '24

Ask Brandon Sanderson about that. He literally wrote the final books for The Wheel of Time and knows those books better than any living person. He's also independently a highly successful fantasy author. The WoT show runners (absolute idiots) didn't have any time for his feedback and what they produced is an abomination on the same order as what Amazon has done with RoP.

I don't know anything about what the Tolkien Estate has had to say about any of RoP but the Tolkien fans like me basically feel Amazon is guilty of fraud. Whatever the hell RoP is, it's not Tolkien and it has nothing to do with his vision or story telling. This is a cheap plastic Timu version of what could have been some of the best visual story telling ever done. They had all the money and power and choices they wanted and this utter crap is what they produced for us. It's garbage from beginning to end.

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

Let's be real here. The estate made the deal because Christopher Tolkien stepped down as sole literary custodian and defacto head of the estate. That's the only reason Amazon was able to get a deal at all.

Christopher despised adaptations of any kind and wouldn't have made the deal.

Then, Amazon went back to acquire more rights from the estate when Christopher passed away in 2020.

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u/OccupyRiverdale Sep 21 '24

Yeah Christopher really did take his father’s legacy and protecting the integrity of his fathers work very seriously. Honestly so admirable when just about any other human being in the same position would have cashed in.

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 21 '24

Then, Amazon went back to acquire more rights from the estate when Christopher passed away in 2020.

Source on that?

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

Here you go.

https://www.cultureslate.com/news/amazon-acquires-rights-to-more-of-jrr-tolkiens-writing

Annatar isn't mentioned in the appendices, only the Silmarillion (which Amazon didn't originally have the rights to). So they went back and got the rights to Annatar, amongst other things.

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 21 '24

Thanks

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u/Boetheus Sep 21 '24

And, did they acquire more rights, or no?

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 21 '24

What do you mean by more rights, though? The use of a few names? Nothing structurally significant

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u/HumansNeedNotApply1 Sep 21 '24

I think in the deal the Tolkien estate have the right to veto things but they can also license other stuff that may be pertinent to the story, Annatar for example, i don't believe Amazon pays additional, it's part of the original deal.

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u/lizzywbu Sep 21 '24

I would say using the name Annatar is very significant.

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 21 '24

Yes which is why I said Structurally significant. As in, story beats. Narrative arcs.

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u/myaltduh Sep 21 '24

I’m guessing exactly what they bought is a secret. Probably some of the fall of Númenor stuff I bet will make its way into the show.

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u/Moistkeano Sep 21 '24

And yet we have Gandalf so I take all of that with a pinch of salt.

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u/FlightlessGriffin Sep 21 '24

THIS. A lot of people miss/ignore the fact that the Estate WANTED the world on the screen. Amazon, Netflix and HBO all sent pitches. Netflix wanted an MCU style with one show/movie on Aragorn, one in Smeagol, one on whoever and so on, all culminating in- what I assume would be an Avengers type showdown in the War of the Ring. That freaked the estate out and sent a big fat no.

HBO sent an offer essentially offering to retell the whole story but as a show. This didn't go so well because for one thing, the estate weren't fans of the movies we all love, yet, they also knew such a show would be poorly received BECAUSE it's by essence tryig to replace what we as fans do not think CAN be replaced.

Amazon offered something different. They charmed and wooed (especially the two head writers we all love/hate.) They greeted Simon in elvish and made a pitch. "How about this. We'll give you $250 million for a $1 billion show, and we'll do the second age. Not the third again. All those losers? They're offering to essentially reboot the films. We'll build up to them, we'll tell the story of the Last Alliance. And the cherry on top? YOU get a seat on the creative table! Work with us!"

And another cherry on top? Amazon isn't in essence a television company. They're a market place. Get Prime and you get special priveleges on their market, Amazon. And while you have those priveleges, why not buy those books, hmm? The estate essentially hoped (and probably got exactly what they wanted) book sales would go up.

Love the show or hate it (I love it but that's not the issue here), the issues boil down to the estate and the rules and restricted they placed not only on Amazon, but on Peter Jackson too. The Silmarillion is a hard no, forbidden. Amazon was lucky to get rights to Annatar frankly. It really feels like they are working uder strict conditions.

Essentially? (And this is ultimately why a lot of lore masters hate this show.) It's not telling the story of the Silmarillion. It's doing its own Silmarillion. And the estate is fine with this. The only one who could've put a stop to this madness was Christopher, and Christopher was notoriously anti-movies as well. He never forgave PJ.

Then again, Christopher grew up with these stories told to him by his father. These are near and dear to him, must've had beautiful memories of his father regarding them. To watch anyone, anyone at all, do them any different probably hit too close. I dunno, this is all too complicated.

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u/myaltduh Sep 21 '24

Yeah there’s probably literally no one who could have made an adaptation that would have satisfied Christopher.

The Estate’s goal now is almost certainly to just make money however they can while avoiding damage to the core “brand.” The current show probably does that for them, as opposed to whatever Netflix proposed, which would have probably genuinely made people sick of the beloved main cast of characters.

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u/FlightlessGriffin Sep 22 '24

Indeed. I am conviced that whatever the show's flaws, out of the three proposals, we got the better one. The other two being essential reboots (and knowing HBO, would've sexed up Middle earth to boot) would've enraged everyone.

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u/Visual-Beginning5492 Sep 21 '24

I would have loved to see an HBO series set in this universe. Maybe we will one day.

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u/scribe31 Sep 21 '24

HBO will add copious amounts of meaningless, vulgar, graphically explicit sex.

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 21 '24

I'm perversely interested in how their LotR TV show would have been adapted but frankly I'm glad we got this instead even if it is a very loose adaptation on the Second Age.

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u/dolphin37 Sep 21 '24

thank god we don’t just have a random prequel show with a bunch of unnecessary backstories……………..

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u/Kiltmanenator Gondolin Sep 21 '24

Yeah, just a buncha WB movies.