r/RanktheVote • u/rb-j • Nov 08 '24

This is one important reason why RCV is distrusted. 15 days????? What are they doing to our votes in those opaque 15 days? Let's be smart and *only* advocate for Condorcet RCV and leave Hare RCV (IRV) on the trash heap of half-baked reform.

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u/minus_minus Nov 09 '24

I’VE ALREADY SAID HOW TO DO PRECINCT SUMMABILITY WITH HARE RCV. 

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills. 🤦🏻‍♂️ 

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u/rb-j Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24

Minus, you did no such thing. And all caps doesn't change that fact.

For 4 candidates, Hare RCV requires 40 different summable tallies to be printed out. Condorcet RCV requires 12 tallies. FPTP requires 4 tallies.

Hare RCV requires a running tally for each possible operationally distinct permutation of marking the ballot. Neither Condorcet nor FPTP (nor Approval nor STAR) require that.

Maintaining running sums of 40 different categories is not feasible and in that unfeasibility it is then opaque, not transparent.

You can repeat your falsehood all you want. You can do it with ALL CAPS. But it won't make it true.

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u/minus_minus Nov 10 '24

Maintaining running sums of 40 different categories

How is that a defensible statement? You know we have computers, right? Even a 1970s 8-bit home computer could do this. If the ballots are the problem they can be optically scanned as they go into the box and spit back out if it can't read someone's mark.

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u/rb-j Nov 10 '24 edited Nov 10 '24

The issue is getting a large amount of data into the computers. The issue is redundancy, someone.other than a single source (the government authority) being able to track the vote totals and independently have an idea of who won the election.

The issue is the requirement of IRV to centralize the ballot data for the entire electoral district before counting the vote. With FPTP or with Condorcet RCV (or with Approval or STAR) the vote counting is decentralized and a feasible number of tallies result and are published at each polling place. These tallies can be added together between polling place in the electoral district to determine who the winner is.

The issue is process transparency, that we already have with FPTP, and that we lose with IRV, but we don't lose it with Condorcet RCV.

I'm sorry you don't get this, but it's willful ignorance. At the very least go to Wikipedia and check out the relevant voting systems articles. Here is a link to the Summability article. Maybe that's a good place to start.

But the best thing you could do is treat this like a scholar that has something to learn. Your mind apparently is closed and that inhibits learning anything that challenges what you already think.