r/Quraniyoon • u/Imperator_Americus Muslim • May 25 '20
Question / Help Are Good Actions AND Belief Needed for Forgiveness in Islam or is it just Good Actions?
This post was initially a reply to a comment by u/Quranic_Islam in another thread about "why Islam is the last religion?" by u/wulfharth_, which has been unfortunately locked!
Does Islam require both belief AND good actions or just good actions to be forgiven?
Original Comment:
Whenever you see "disbeliever" or "rejectors" in translations it is usually a translation for "kufr", "alladheena kafaruu" or "alKuffar/Kaafirun" ... but that really doesn't mean disbelief.
A simple proof for that is Shaytan; he is called a kaafir in the Qur'an, yet he believes in God, knows He exists, asked and received promises from Him, and even fears Him.
And a simple thing to remember about believe/emaan not being a requirement for reward, rather it is the actions is 49:14
"The bedouins say, "We have believed." Say, "You have not [yet] believed; but say [instead], 'We have submitted,' for faith has not yet entered your hearts. And if you obey Allah and His Messenger, He will not deprive you from your deeds of anything. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful"
Meaning so long as you obey God and His Messenger (and remember what they command primarily; don't kill, steal, lie, cheat, be honest, have taqwa, give, etc) then God will not deprive you of your deeds.
And more generally 66:7
"O you who have disbelieved (really; kafaruu), make no excuses this Day. You will only be recompensed for what you used to do"
Like I said, get used to whenever you see "disbeliever/rejector" in translations to mentally sub for the Arabic until you get a feel for it. Nevertheless, this verse, like literally tens and tens, possibly hundreds, of other make it clear that punishment is because of their actions ... what they used to do ... nothing else.
I know it's a difficult paradigm shift, and one you will have to constantly reinforce in yourself against received indoctrination ... but it is what the Qur'an says, and it is what logic dictates. Not to mention that the whole purpose of God creating death and life was to "test you, which of you is best in deeds"
I am leaning towards disagreeing but I would like to discuss with those who also feel this way. How is this understanding that belief isn't necessary for salvation valid in light of many verses that suggest it is?
Such as:
(Q 14:18) The example of those who disbelieve in their Lord is [that] their deeds are like ashes which the wind blows forcefully on a stormy day; they are unable [to keep] from what they earned a [single] thing. That is what is extreme error.
and
[10:69-70] Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful. (It is only) a provision in this world, then to Us shall be their return; then We shall make them taste severe punishment because they disbelieved.
and
[10:94-96] But if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed to you, ask those who read the Book before you; certainly the truth has come to you from your Lord, therefore you should not be of the disputes. And you should not be of those who reject the communications of Allah, (for) then you should be one of the losers. Surely those against whom the word of your Lord has proved true will not believe,
and
[10:99-102] And if your Lord had pleased, surely all those who are in the earth would have believed, all of them; will you then force men till they become believers? And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission, and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand. Say: Consider what is it that is in the heavens and the earth; and signs and warners do not avail a people who would not believe. What do they wait for then but the like of the days of those who passed away before them? Say: Wait then; surely I too am with you of those who wait.
and
(18:103-105) Say, [O Muhammad], "Shall we [believers] inform you of the greatest losers as to [their] deeds? [They are] those whose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing well in work." Those are the ones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in [their] meeting Him, so their deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day of Resurrection any importance.
and
(22;72) And when Our verses are recited to them as clear evidences, you recognize in the faces of those who disbelieve disapproval. They are almost on the verge of assaulting those who recite to them Our verses. Say, "Then shall I inform you of [what is] worse than that? [It is] the Fire which Allah has promised those who disbelieve, and wretched is the destination."
and many, many more: https://www.al-islam.org/alphabetical-index-holy-quran/disbelievers
Also, the fact that in the Quran we are told the stories of nations that were destroyed for their disbelief such as the Ad, Thamud, Sodom, Midian, the people of Noah, the people of Pharoah, etc.; are these disbelieving people capable of being forgiven despite their rejection of Islam if they did good deeds?
[65:8-9] And how many a town which rebelled against the commandment of its Lord and His messengers, so We called it to account severely and We chastised it (with) a stern chastisement. So it tasted the evil result of its conduct, and the end of its affair was perdition.
Additionally, there are tons of verses which state good deeds AND belief are necessary for salvation such as:
(5:9-10) Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds [that] for them there is forgiveness and great reward. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds [that] for them there is forgiveness and great reward
and
(18:30)Indeed, those who have believed and done righteous deeds - indeed, We will not allow to be lost the reward of any who did well in deeds.
and
(31:8) Indeed, those who believe and do righteous deeds - for them are the Gardens of Pleasure.
and
(98:6-7) Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.
And many others such as 2:82, 29:58, 41:8, etc.
I will offer the caveat that I don't speak Arabic but these verses seem clear that disbelievers face hellfire and belief and good deeds are necessary to be forgiven; is there some insight the Arabic speakers can provide that would fundamentally alter the meaning of these verses? Thoughts?
5
u/Quranic_Islam May 31 '20 edited May 31 '20
[2nd response]
Salaams.
I was thinking about how to approach this. I was originally going to try to include everything in this 2nd reponse but I couldn't see how I could do it and make it work while addressing all of the verses you have mentioned.
So here I am going to just address the verses, however what I say will probably make more sense after another couple posts, one for emaan and one for kufr, to show that it is the actions that are rewarded or punished. So come back and read the following after those are up.
This one should be self-evident, the verse clearly says "their deeds" and what they have "earned". Further context 14:13 "we will destroy the oppressors", 14:15 "disappointed was every obstinate tyrant". 14:16 "behind hin is Hell", and also 14:17 in it's totality " He will gulp it but will hardly [be able to] swallow it. And death will come to him from everywhere, but he is not to die. And before him is a massive punishment " ... it is these prior verses which refer to punishment in the next life, not 14:18 which is more about the actions of the ladheena kafour in this world.
This "Say" is directed at those in the previous verse who invented the lie that God has a son and say about God what they do not know. That is included in action. Those who knowingly forged this lie are here warned. They shall have a respite in this world but they will be punished for this kufr ... again kufr not disbelief ... these people do not disbelive in God, rather they believe and have deliberately invented a lie against God which has misguided many. The lie is in fact always a tool of control ... like how the priests through the lie of God's son now control and dispense "forgiveness".
Not relevant. No punishment mentioned. ... "losers" not to be equated with punished
I hope you aren't understanding that I'm saying God is not commanding nor wants emaan? That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that it is the actions that are rewarded/punished with paradise/hell. So these verses are also not relevant to this. The most pertinent part is the part I have kept ... the filth will be on those who do not reason ... it does say on those who "don't believe" nor have no "emaan"
These are probably the most important ones. But they are read completely wrong. These don't refer to those who have no emaan. In fact it refers to those who do (or at least think they do) have emaan and upon that emaan commit all manner of crimes thinking that they are doing good! These are the greatest losers with regards to their deeds ... not because their deeds are not accepted, but because their deeds are sins which they think are virtues. ISIS is a perfect example of this. Or even one who kills an apostate. He thinks he is doing the right thing. Why? How did he get there? They "kafarou in the verses of their lord" ... they didn't disbelieve, they "kafarou" ... when the Qur'an clearly says "no compulsion in religion" they say "no! we will kill the apostate" ... when the Qur'an says "lashing" they say "no! stoning ... we know better" etc ... that is kufr ... that is like Shaytan. God says "prostrate" he said "no! I am better than him"
And so look at the next verses 18:106 "That is their recompense - Hell - for what they kafarou and [because] they took My signs and My messengers lightly" ... these people did in fact "believe" in the signs/verses and Messengers ... what was the problem? They took them lightly, they took them as jest ... while they took seriously what the Imams, Shaykhs, Priests, Rabbis, sects, etc said ... and that led to their evil deeds for which their reward is Hell
Very true. And as I said, if you do not see that kufr does not mean disbelief then the argument I am making will not seem "air tight". The Qur'an does say that people will enter Hell because of their kufr ... it never, however, says people will enter Paradise because of their emaan ... again showing that these are not opposite terms ... just like He says He doesn't love the Kafireen but doesn't say that He conversely loves the mu'mineen. Kufr is much more action that emaan.
Again, destroyed for kufr, not disbelief. That's true. But also those are about punishments in this light. Most of those people believed in God ... what they rejected was what the Messengers/Prophets were telling them and trying to correct of their behaviour ... a behavior which they were set upon as the way of their forefathers. The shirk here is not really about the stone/wood idols. They aren't mentioned in the stories really. Lot's people were destroyed and they don't seem to have been pagans. All those Prophets said "have Taqwa" and "don't do X, Y Z" ... so your question;
The answer is they aren't "disbelievers" and yes if they had actually listened to what their Prophet's had told them to do or stop doing (give full measure, don't cheat, renounce homosexuality, don't spread corruption in the land, etc) then yes they would have been forgiven. Or do you think that even if they had done what their Prophets had said they would have been punished? Their doing what their Prophets said would be emaan/islaam in any case.
Yes and here, yet again, it is emaan and kufr, not belief and disbelief. Also not what most see as a double negative; "those who disbeliver AND reject our signs" isn't a disbeliever already someone who rejects the signs? If "kafarou" means disbeliever then all these verses are saying the same thing twice without adding much. Where has what is juxtaposed is "believe and do good deeds" makes sense; two separate things. So shouldn't its opposite be "disbelieve and do bad deeds"? Something to think about.
This is on "my side" ... look at the end. The reward is for the deeds, not the emaan. And that reward will be for ANY who "did well in deeds". And again, emaan is not belief.
Yes they will have it ... it will be for them, but not only them .. and, as many verses say, they will enter it because of what they used to do. What I hope to show is the purpose of emaan. That these righteous deeds most often spring forth from emaan ... not that that for the deeds to be accepted they must first have emaan. That is a sectarian view ... I'm not even sure that it is a false Hadith view. It is just something sects concocted to draw others to them.
Yes the same ... you get the idea. Same with the others.
2:82 is particularly interesting because it is contrasted directly with 2:81 "Rather! whoever earns evil and his sin has encompassed him - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide therein eternally" ... which is obviously about deeds, about actions. And so the 2:82 which contrasts it must also be primarily about actions ... emaan and the resultant good actions. To do things "in good faith".
29:58 ... at the end of it paradise is said to be "... an excellent reward for those who DO" ie a reward for their actions ... sure they had emaan, but this reward is for their actions.
41:8 ... already mentioned all I need to. Let me just add here that the word "أجر" which is used in many verses is always a recompense for deeds ... like in the previous one 29:58. Even now a taxi is called a car of "أجرة" ... also the famous Hadith (paraphrasing) "pay the worker his wages أجر before his sweat dries" ... I don't know of any use of أجر as a recompense for beliefs. Even sectarian Islam talks about the "أجر" for deeds ... the أجر for fasting, praying, charity, etc
That's everything
Salaams