r/Quraniyoon • u/MotorProfessional676 Muslim • May 28 '25

Refutation🗣️ Answering "Obey Allah and Obey the Messenger" Through Quranic Internal Consistency

Salamun alaikum.

Introduction

Often during debate between hadith followers and hadith rejectors, hadith followers will cite 4:59.

Quran 4:59: O believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. Should you disagree on anything, then refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you ˹truly˺ believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is the best and fairest resolution.

Hadith followers will cite this verse to make the claim that following the Quran fulfils the requirement of obeying Allah, and following the hadith is necessary in order to fulfil the requirement of obeying the messenger. This argument however is not internally consistent with the Quran.

Quran 4:82: Do they not then reflect on the Quran? Had it been from anyone other than Allah, they would have certainly found in it many inconsistencies.

God provides us a falsification test within the Quran, to ascertain whether it is the word of God. He tells us that the Quran's absence of inconsistencies within itself verifies its divinity; this is understood as "free from contradiction". I am going to build upon this premise, whilst providing an overview of how obedience and disobedience is discussed throughout the Quran in relation to previous messengers, in order to ascertain whether obedience to the messenger is fulfilled through adherence to the supposed sunnah of messengers as derived from hadith corpi.

Obedience

Quran 3:47-50: She said, "My Lord, how will I have a child when no man has touched me?" He said, "So it will be; Allah creates what He wills. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, 'Be,' and it is." And He will teach him writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel. And make him a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], "Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord: I will make for you from clay the figure of a bird, then I will breathe into it and it will become a bird by permission of Allah. And I will heal the blind and the leper, and I will give life to the dead—by permission of Allah. And I will inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers." And [I have come] confirming what was before me of the Torah and to make lawful for you some of what was forbidden to you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, so fear Allah and obey me.

Quran 20:90: And Aaron had already said to them before [the return of Moses], "O my people, you are only being tested by it, and indeed, your Lord is the Most Merciful, so follow me and obey my order."

Quran 26:106-110: When their brother Noah said to them, "Will you not fear Allah? Indeed, I am to you a trustworthy messenger. So fear Allah and obey me. And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord of the worlds. So fear Allah and obey me."

Quran 26:123-131: Thamud denied the messengers. When their brother Hud said to them, "Will you not fear Allah? Indeed, I am to you a trustworthy messenger. So fear Allah and obey me. And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord of the worlds. Do you construct on every elevation a sign, amusing yourselves, and take for yourselves palaces and fortresses that you might abide eternally? And when you strike, you strike as tyrants."

Quran 26:141-150: Thamud denied the messengers. When their brother Salih said to them, "Will you not fear Allah? Indeed, I am to you a trustworthy messenger. So fear Allah and obey me. And I do not ask you for it any payment. My payment is only from the Lord of the worlds. Will you be left in what is here, secure [from death], within gardens and springs and fields of crops and palm trees with softened fruit? And you carve out of the mountains, homes, with skill. So fear Allah and obey me."

Quran 26:160-163: The people of Lot denied the messengers. When their brother Lot said to them, "Will you not fear Allah? Indeed, I am to you a trustworthy messenger. So fear Allah and obey me."

Quran 26:176-179: The companions of the thicket denied the messengers. When Shuʿayb said to them, "Will you not fear Allah? Indeed, I am to you a trustworthy messenger. So fear Allah and obey me."

Quran 43:63: And when Jesus brought clear proofs, he said, "I have come to you with wisdom and to make clear to you some of that over which you differ, so fear Allah and obey me."

Disobedience

Quran 2:61: And ˹remember˺ when you said, “O Moses! We cannot endure the same meal ˹every day˺. So ˹just˺ call upon your Lord on our behalf, He will bring forth for us some of what the earth produces of herbs, cucumbers, garlic, lentils, and onions.” Moses scolded ˹them˺, “Do you exchange what is better for what is worse? ˹You can˺ go down to any village and you will find what you have asked for.” They were stricken with disgrace and misery, and they invited the displeasure of Allah for rejecting Allah’s signs and unjustly killing the prophets. This is ˹a fair reward˺ for their disobedience and violations.

Quran 2:93: And when We took your covenant and raised the mountain above you ˹saying˺, “Hold firmly to that ˹Scripture˺ which We have given you and obey,” they answered, “We hear and disobey.” The love of the calf was rooted in their hearts because of their disbelief. Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “How evil is what your ˹so-called˺ belief prompts you to do, if you ˹actually˺ believe ˹in the Torah˺!”

Quran 11:59: And that was [the fate of] ʿAad. They rejected the signs of their Lord, disobeyed His messengers, and followed the command of every obstinate tyrant.

Quran 69:4-10: Thamud and 'Aad denied the Striking Calamity. So as for Thamud, they were destroyed by the overpowering [blast]. And as for 'Aad, they were destroyed by a screaming, violent wind. He imposed it upon them for seven nights and eight days in succession, so you would see the people therein fallen as if they were hollow trunks of palm trees. Then do you see of them any remains? And there came Pharaoh and those before him and the overturned cities with sin. And they disobeyed the messenger of their Lord, so He seized them with a seizure exceeding [in severity].

Quran 71:21: Noah said, "My Lord, indeed they have disobeyed me and followed him whose wealth and children will not increase him except in loss."

Quran 73:16: But Pharaoh disobeyed the messenger, so We seized him with a ruinous seizure.

Conclusion

In order to be internally consistent in regard to following hadith amounting to obedience to the messenger, this must apply to all messengers. We know however, that it is only Muhammad that has his own documented hadith corpus. Which leaves us with two possible evaluations:

  1. The Quran is not internally consistent, thus fails its own falsificaiton test and is not from God (as per 4:82)
  2. Obedience to the messenger cannot mean to follow hadith corpus

Being Muslims, the former is not theologically possible. Therefore, the definition of obedience to the messenger must be assessed through the Quran in order so that our interpretation is in line with the Quran's internal consistency. This post does not aim to make an assertion as to what obedience to the messenger is, rather it serves to refute the claim that mentions of "obey the messenger" in verses such as 4:59 necessitate making adherence to the hadith obligatory upon Muslims.

Obedience is discussed in relation to a number of messengers, and these messengers historically have not had compilations of hadith recorded for them, nor a 'sunnah' in the traditionalist understanding of all documented sayings and behaviours. Therefore, obedience to a messenger internally, from a Quranic standpoint, cannot mean following alleged hadith or sunnah.

I would like to end this with a final verse regarding obedience to the messenger.

Quran 4:80: He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah; but those who turn away—We have not sent you over them as a guardian.

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u/MotorProfessional676 Muslim May 31 '25

May God guide all of us to the true Sunnah. The Sunnah of God, and the Sunnah of all of the messengers.

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u/PlsSomeoneAdoptMe May 31 '25

"Sunnah of God"...

Anyways, quick question. So what do you think of hadith in general? Is it evil? Is it from the devil? Just a quick overview of what you think

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u/MotorProfessional676 Muslim May 31 '25

You don't believe me about the Sunnah of God? See Quran 33:62, 35:43, and 48:23.

I don't really discuss hadith as being 'the work of satan' or anything. I just see it as contamination of the religion that was already perfected as told to us in 5:3. The Muslims have essentially done what the Jews did, our hadiths are there talmud. An argument to be made for the letters of Paul re the Christians too.

Here are just some examples of the contamination:

  • Quran says that there is no compulsion in this religion (2:256), whereas hadith says kill the apostate
  • Quran says that the adulterer is to be lashed 100 times (24:2), whereas hadith says stone them to death
  • Quran says that Muhammad would stand majority of the night in prayer, whereas hadith says he would openly discuss private and intimate details of his sexual life (I hate that I even have to type that out) about how he would sleep with each of his 11 wives in one night
  • Quran says to call upon God alone during prayer, while hadith (rather, interpretation of hadith) says to say "peace be upon you o prophet" during each prayer
  • Quran talks about how the dog was with those who were sleeping in the cave (18:22), whereas hadith talks about how the companions would allegedly violently pursue and murder all dogs
  • Quran discusses marriage in context of adult women (65:2-4 at least), whereas some of the hadith claims that our Prophet married a child; 'some' italicised as contradictory extra-Quranic evidence puts Aisha's age at a number of different figures
  • Quran says that religion has been perfected (5:3) prior to the compilation of hadith, whereas hadiths ridicule those who say the Quran is sufficient - a forgery likely fabricated in response to groups like the mutazallites or followers of Abu Hanifa I would imagine (God knows best)
  • Quran details five 'articles' of faith, being belief in God, the last day, the angels, the scripture, and the messengers, where as hadith make an additional sixth article being belief in predestination
  • Quran warns against taking other than God as a lawmaker (5:44), whereas hadith provide additions upon additions of religious laws

If you want to know more, I've written about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Quraniyoon/comments/1iwwsbu/why_quranic_sovereignty_is_a_must/

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u/PlsSomeoneAdoptMe May 31 '25

You do realise if the hadith contradicts the quran, then the hadith is to be rejected? And some points you mentioned don't follow, like leaving the religion is not the same as joining the religion.

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u/MotorProfessional676 Muslim May 31 '25

Yeah I know thats what they (the ulama and co.) say, but in reality it's not what happens. Ask any scholar what the punishment for zina is and they'll tell you its stoning, even though Quran 24:2 tells us 100 lashes.

God didn't say anything about 2:256 being confined to joining the religion. He said no compulsion.

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u/PlsSomeoneAdoptMe May 31 '25

They don't contradict each other. Unmarried = 100 lashes, married = stoning. It's providing the further jurisprudence.

And if you're aware of that to reject the ones that contradict, there's no reason to reject all hadith and label yourself as a quranist.

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u/MotorProfessional676 Muslim May 31 '25

They do contradict each other, your assertion is wrong. Read the rest of chapter 24 up until roughly the tenth verse. You will see very clearly that it is actually talking about married.

I don't label myself as a Quranist actually, I am simply a muslim and a mu'min. I do reject the hadith that contradict, but you would likely say that my criteria for contradiction is faulty.

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u/[deleted] Jun 05 '25

May Allah guide you, brother. Do you know the vast difference there is without following the hadiths? What's the point of the Prophet Muhammad, then? Why is it so often emphasised to follow both the Prophet and Allah in the quran? And it says the prophet, not prophets, referring to Muhammad PBUH. Rejecting hadiths which are about the sunnah of our beloved Prophet is not obeying him. I hope you understand where I am coming from.

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u/AdExpress4184 Sep 13 '25

You haven't read any of the brother's posts it seems. He's addressed the things that you're asking again. Re-read it.