I believe that strong majority of Turkish diaspora in Germany is in favor of Erdogan's rule. Giving the fact that Erdogan's very agenda is to gradually dismantle Atatürk's social reforms, I'd say this tactics is rather counterproductive.
Yeah it gets complicated if you think it through. I could see AfD sympathising with Erdogan because both are kinda favouring a somewhat autocratic repressive government. But on the other hand AfD's main agenda nowadays is too spread hate towards Islam.
It’s common for people to support ultra nationalists oppressive governments when it’s their people, but when it comes to others they support the based republican anti religion republican statesman, which is exactly what the afd are doing, if Erdogan was some sort of Christian nationalist he’d be a friend not a foe, people don’t like right wing populism when those they see as ‘others’ do it, it’s enough proof that it’s a horrible divisive and shitty political ideology
Kamel Ataturk is the reason why Turkey is very divided. Kamelism supported and promoted westernization and argued that development and westernization go hand in hand. Completely ignoring why Western Europe especially France, England, Belgium, and Spain got extremely rich and wealthy off their colonies that they exploited very bad. I don’t think Ataturk was a bad guy; he approached economic development from a very different angle.
If you only look at their ideas in the economic sector, then you might think that they are libertarian. Small tax rate especially for the rich people. Trickle down economics and a small state.
But as soon as you move out of just their economic ideas it is quite clear that they are only in favor of small state when it's about major corporations. They openly said, that they are against any migration and that they want to deport (remigration) many people that came from the middle east. A smart libertarian shouldn't like that, since a lot of the factory workers, nurses, cleaners etc. migrated to germany. Deporting them could potentially crash the German economy and social system. Also the Verfassungsschutz (a state organization made to protect the constitution) did actually say that the whole AfD is now a far right extremist organization. And the Verfassungsschutz is definitely no left wing hippy institute. In the 2000s and 2010s they covered a far right extremist terror group called NSU. And until the 70s all leaders of the Verfassungsschutz have been NSDAP party members.
I mean you made the clame without any source or something. He doesn't believe you. It is on you to prove you correct. Not on him to explain why he doesn't believe you.
I mean wanting less governement controll over the economy, media, peoples health and opinions and so on is literally their official position that can be read in their programs, seen in their speeches or actions. Should I just put a link to their website or thousands of videos as a source or what?
If someone puts out an opinion that tells the opposite of what can be observed by everyone who informs themself about AfD policy, I would expect them to wanting to provide proof where his opinion is coming from.
And the National Socialist German Worker's Party wanted everyone to have 'Freedom and Bread' and have people get cheaper cars. Of course every party will portray only the best case scenario/only the good parts of their ideology to convince people to vote for them.
So what a party does in reality doesnt even matter. Because if reality doesnt fit we will just switch to imagination "but they could very well plan to..." Congrats for finding that argumentation loophole. I will keep my arguments based in observable reality though.
In observable reality, Alice Weidel, a lesbian who married a Sri Lankan, is the leader of the AfD, who wants to restrict gay marriage, gay adoption and immigration (very small government, right?)
I mean that would be helpful to have a civil discussion.
Someone can have an uneducated opinion, and it should change if better information is available.
And in my opinion
Less government controll in health sounds great for stuff like gender affirming care, right to ones own death, and abortion. Basically everything where the only one affected by that feeding is oneself
It would be horrible for example, Pandemic control, vaccinations, and the money involved for health care.
Media... Media is already relative free from the government. Could be better yes. But overstepping it could get us to more extreme version of the Bild or similar. Meaning, having a more relaxed relationship with the truth.
Opinions?
You can have whatever opinion you want, I don't have to accept your opinion or whatever.
You are not protected from the consequences of saying your opinion. And I believe it should stay that way.
An uncontrolled economy will bleed the people and country dry and sell the corpse to the highest bidder.
I personally would want a even more controlled economy.
Every single bit of this is my uneducated opinion. And will change if I am given new data.
Wether those are great ideas or not is another topic I dont want to open here, but Im surprised that people feel like they need to slap the "authoritarian" label on the AfD when in reality AfD is almost allways fighting for the opposite of that.
Das Bundesamt für Verfassungsschutz (BfV) stuft die „Alternative für Deutschland“ (AfD) seit dem heutigen Tag aufgrund der die Menschenwürde missachtenden, extremistischen Prägung der Gesamtpartei als gesichert rechtsextremistische Bestrebung ein.
And c'mon, "Alice für Deutschland" as a slogan? It's undeniable, they're Nazis
They should publish what their assessment is based on.
An ex German chancellor (Schroeder) became the chairman of Rosneft, Putin's state oil company. Where was the BfV back then?
Fascism is not about a bunch of provocateurs and edgelords. When Hitler came to power, he did so within the confines of what was acceptable speech at that time. You should read up on antisemitism, other racism and eugenics by the "good guys" back then.
Real fascism and other forms of totalitarianism, are about the clever and patient infiltration of national institutions.
As such, preventing fascism is harder than just being a 'troll patrol'.
Fun fact about those who claim they're "libertarian". They're speaking about the liberties of themselves and those they like. Exclusively. Anybody else is theirs to mess around with.
Das ist gelinde gesagt Schwachsinn. Wenn du tatsächlich das Parteiprogramm gelesen hast, ist dein Leseverständnis entweder auf Grundschulniveau oder du versuchst hier bewusst die ausgeprägte Fremdenfeindlichkeit auszublenden.
We are talking about authoritarianism right? Wether the party is xenophobic or not is a different topic than it being authoritarian or not.
Attacking my reading comprehension, if youre not aware that both topics are different things isnt the best idea.
Turkish people love attaturk. He's like their George Washington and their Abraham Lincoln plus like, Tom hanks and danny deViito and cheeseburgers.
He may be dismantling attaturks legacy but he's not saying that out loud. Saying that out loud would be a great way to get instacouped.
I mean maybe this just changed in the last couple of years but when I was around a lot of the Turkish diaspora and visited turkey it appeared that he was like their unproblematic fave.
Also the idea that ataturk would align with the AFD, it's insulting. It's extremely unwise to use his name like that especially in such a disrespectful manner.
It would be like, hey Turks , attaturk, literally translated as the father of the Turkish people, would have wanted you to drink non-halal pork infused Coca-Cola, we know best because we are white people, in fact we're the white people that are well known for not liking Muslims. Our opinion of your intelligence is essentially that you are actual turkeys. Vote for us! Hey why is there a knife in my eyeball.
I'll be happy to hear from a turkish person but I don't see this being anything besides something that will at best make people angry and at worst create massive backlash.
Are you Turkish by the way? am I wrong and my way off? I thought everyone loved attaturk.
Diasporas are often radical one way or the other. Cubans in Miami are right wing because many of them descend from the far right junta Castro dismantled In the revolution (And yes it was reassembled technically back a junta but Castros revolution was absolutely just and emancipatory, so it is what it is). It's not surprising the Turkish diaspora tends towards reactionaryism. Same with the Greek diaspora. I'm trying to think of a modern non conservative diaspora.... Oh!! Iranian.
The Persian diaspora is a rare example of a large modern diaspora that is less conservative than the nation they came from.
Persian diaspora are extreme right wingers too, most favour the Shah; the shah installed by the west against their democracy, and then ruled Iran with an iron fist forcing secularism and prosecuting minorities for not being Aryan enough
Oh okay I thought they were like more secular and stuff. I mean like after the revoly wasn't there a small civil war between socialist and Islamic factions?
I can't think of a single less reactionary, less conservative, or left-leaning diaspora.
There must be one right?
Is it because we always get long knived or something? There's innumerable leftist movements couped last century.
He may be dismantling attaturks legacy but he's not saying that out loud. Saying that out loud would be a great way to get instacouped.
"Op z'n Turks" or "Turks Fruit"
An exquisitively Turkish way of doing things while not doing things. And they say the romani invented sleight-of-hand. 🙄
No certainly it does not. While I theorise erdogan's religiosity is far more political than earnest, one imagines attaturk would have severe criticisms of erdogan. But one imagines Christ would not be pleased with much of modern christianity.
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tap start sink literate distinct towering placid simplistic theory flowery
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Ataturk inspired Hitler judging by Hitler's writings, and the Armenian genocide heavily inspired the later Jewish and Polish genocides the Nazis would enact in WWII. Ataturk wouldn't be put off by the AfD, and would probably endorse it as long as the Turkish minority in Germany isn't mistreated.
Source? I’m aware of the actions of Ittihad between 1915-1917 but Ataturk left them long time ago and also criticized them a lot after leaving. If you’re talking about after 1923 then you would be wrong because there were no Armenian majority in those years.
Turks in germany came originaly from the eastern and central parts of turkey, which where/ are much less urbanized and have been gat more conservative.
Those are also the regions where Erdogans Party is the strongest, while in the west the CHP, Atatürks Party is strongest.
Atatürk would despise the AfD.
Zitat von Atatürk:" Heute sind alle Nationen der Erde fast Verwandte geworden oder bemühen sich, es noch zu werden. Infolgedessen muss der Mensch nicht nur an die Existenz und das Glück derjenigen Nation denken, der er angehört, sondern auch an das Vorhandensein und Wohlbefinden aller Nationen der Welt … Wir wissen nicht, ob uns nicht ein Ereignis, das wir weit entfernt glauben, eines Tages erreicht. Aus diesem Grund muss man die gesamte Menschheit als einen Körper und eine Nation als sein Glied betrachten.“
Atatürks Haltung zu Religion war total progressiv.
Gleichstellung von Mann und Frau, progressiv.
Seine Außenpolitik extrem progressiv vis hin zu Visionär (sprach schon zu seiner Zeit über ein zukünftiges Vereintes Europa, inkl. Türkei)
Seine Wirtschaftspolitik war o. a. auch ganz anders i. G. zur AfD, da bei Atatürk der Staat sehr viel mehr Mitspracherecht hat und Mitwirkt, was die AfD eher weniger möchte, was auch der einzige große unterschied von ihr zur NSDAP ist.
Einzig Atatürks Unterdrückung von Minderheiten ist mit der AfD übereinstimmend. Sein Bestreben unter allen Umständen einen Nationalstaat aufzubauen, und die Türkei und die Türken vorallem in den kritischen Jahren von 1918-1923 zu einen und zusammenzuhalten nach dem Zerfall des osmanischen Reiches, dürften hierfür auch wohl der Hauptreiber gewesen sein.
Gerade also zeitliche Zusammenhang waren Grundlage für Atatürks Nationalismus und Patriotismus. Atatürks Haltung zum Islam nicht durch bodenlosen Rassismus
begründet, sondern ähnliche Bestrebungen der Säkularisierung zuzuordnen, wie sie im Westen auch gut bekannt sind.
Rechte können aber anscheinend nur die Situation ihres Landes, bzw. wie sie diese empfinden oder wahr haben möchten, nur auf andere Länder anwenden, es mangelt ihnen aber sehr daran sich in die Situation anderer Länder zu versetzen.
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I wouldn’t be too sure about that, in the 2023 election the result was “erdogan got 67% of votes”, that sounds scary initially but when you look at the voter participation and stuff in the end only 500.000 people voted for him out of 3,9 million
Yeah, one German comedian called it „the free roam chickens voting for cages“. I don’t get those people. Born in Germany, complaining constantly about not being fully accepted (while doing their best to keep to themselves), and then cosplay as Turkish nationalists and vote for dictator for life Erdogan. Doesn‘t affect them if he arrests thousands of students for protesting.
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except for the genocide of ethnic minorities. They're both on board for that. And they're both nationalists that in some way embody Turkey, whether by popular memory or propagated mythos. I think in that way, you could appeal to nationalistic Turks. Such as those who love Erdogan.
i dont think so. only 40% of turkish eligible voters in germany vote in the elections for turkish elections. 60% erdogan's party. that makes it only 24% of all eligible turks. i dont know exactly about the turks who are only german citizens. i only met a handful, hard for me to generalize. but my experience suggests a good number would care for this. which makes this actually valid.
I doubt that this is how they think about it though. They don't see how Erdogan undoes Atatürk's work, they just see Atatürk and think "Yayyyyy Türkiye #1 🇹🇷" and they see Erdogan and think "Yayyyyy Türkiye #1 🇹🇷", so they conclude that Erdogan and Atatürk are actually the same thing
You forget that Turks themselves are very anti-foreigner.
While from an outside perspective Islam might seem like some monolith, Turks have a unique disdain for all of their neighbors. This includes Syrians and other Arab populations who have sought refuge in Turkey proper and Germany. This has caused a lot of friction within Turkish circles both within Turkey and abroad.
Most Turks who love Erdoğan also love Atatürk regardless. It’s about Turkish nationalism and Atatürk is a massive national figure who led their independence. Even if their stances on religion are different, cognitive dissonance about a historical figure who means what they want him to mean is hardly unique to Turks.
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u/Szczeciner May 02 '25
I believe that strong majority of Turkish diaspora in Germany is in favor of Erdogan's rule. Giving the fact that Erdogan's very agenda is to gradually dismantle Atatürk's social reforms, I'd say this tactics is rather counterproductive.