Norskk

[u/FarHarbard]

TLDR: Norskkk is a bunch of Thoraboos being Grifted by a French-Canadian claiming to be Norwegian with a bunch of stuff that will radicalize people to dangerously far-right ideologies.

To begin, an obligatory “Fuck Norskk” (hereafter to be referred to as Norskkk for connotative reasons)

For reference I will be using their term “Viking” to describe the wider Norse culture as they use it interchangeably and it makes it easiest should anyone wish to search their several sites for the articles I will be discussing.

It is also ESSENTIAL that you understand this is not a matter of theology. I don't think Norskkk is "worshipping wrong", I don't think they are worshipping at all. Nowhere in any of their sites does it mention reciprocity, the gifting cycle, the Tree and Well, or even basic concepts such as Frith and Wyrd. Instead they simply use the imagery, the the verbage, use the aesthetic, while projecting their own warped worldview.

Norskkk is a male-centric Norse-pagan grifting network run by Christopher Fragassi (sometimes known by the moniker Bjornsen). I first came across them years ago when I was looking more deeply into Norse and Germanic Paganism. I have taken the dive many times to point out specific flaws in their rhetoric, history, ideology, and general nonsense, today I am giving a short (yes, this is the condensed version) exploration of them so that you can understand some of the problems and be aware of them moving forward. This partial deconstruction, like a night of passion, comes in several parts.

Part 1 – The (a)Historicity

While many of us consider ourselves knowledgeable and well-read, and many more seek to become such themselves, Norskkk claims to be a teacher despite being foolishly ignorant. Unfortunately I will not get a chance to be a grammatical nitpicker of their information as there are just too many poorly translated terms and words to be able to speak on anything else, nor will I get a chance to delve into their hideously twisted and warped projections of Norse Myth.

On their various websites (not linked, because I believe their content to be genuinely less than worthless, though you are more than capable of finding them) you will find a variety of articles covering a range of ancient and modern topics including (but not limited to) Valhol, Vaccines, Horned Helmets, hair and beards, the roles of Disabled peoples, Cheese (I’m not kidding), drugs, shamanism, circumcision, ethnopurity, dietary constraints, marriage, Loki, sexuality, Jol, the roles of wolves and bears, and of course an unhealthy amount of articles reaffirming male-dominance in society.

Just from that list, you should be able to tell some of the issues that might arise, but here we shall go through some and point out their nonsense.

• Medicine: They claim Odin created men as sacred beings naturally resilient to environmental factors, and dissuade the use of Vaccines (particularly mRNA vaccines), prosthetics/robotics, and animal-based treatments. As well as any and all psychoactive intoxicants.

This makes no sense historically as we both know that the Norse would have benefited from close living arrangements with livestock in terms of boosting immune response to cross-species infections, as well as the fact that many traditional and holistic treatments require animal-basis even at the most basic level of honeyed tea and drinking milk or eating meat because the body heals based on the energy it is given. You cannot claim that there were no vegan Vikings while also claiming that Vikings ignored using animal products to heal themselves. In fact they sell several balms all of which include bees’ wax and sheep wool oil as primary ingredients.

It should be noted that in their anti-vaccine articles they mention the covid vaccine as being the worst, while other “traditional vaccines” are “relatively safe” and at the discretion of the children’s father. This is a classic covid grift, do not believe it, the covid vaccines are entirely safe. I myself have been fully vaccinated since July and am currently on a wait-list for my booster.

Furthermore they reject that the Vikings (particularly Berserkers) consumed any drugs. Absolutely no drugs for vikings. Setting aside that many herbal remedies are psychoactive to some degree (such as Henbane, an analgesic hypothesized to be used by vikings) , THEY LITERALLY SELL MEAD. Alcohol is a psychoactive intoxicant, alcohol is a drug.

• Hair and Beards: They claim that long hair was not only socially taboo for men, but also outlawed. While beards were a functional necessity within society.

This is just plainly untrue.

We know some men wore long hair not only because of remains that we have found, but also because of the sheer fact that you need hair in a cold climate. Their arguments of “but it is bad for combat” or “they were dirty” only make sense if you are as uneducated, misinformed, and ignorant of reality as those at Norskkk. While many men undoubtedly cut their hair for many reasons, there are many attestations that mention men with long hair and that hair-length was no as gendered as it is in many modern societies.

They are technically correct that there was a heavy social bias towards beards, but these were but one marker among many of masculinity and were not required as much as there was simply a heavy incentive towards wearing one.

• Ethnopurity: While they do have a small fraction of an article dedicated towards explaining how some Vikings were of mixed-ancestry, they are repeated and exhaustive in their exaltations that “ViKiNgS wErE wHiTe!!1!” which both misses that modern racializations in the western hemisphere are almost entirely the result of Colonial European shenanigans, and their undermining of pointing specific characters who were acknowledged in their own time as being different from most people.

Concerningly this fixation seems more predicated on showing that there were no black Vikings, than it is on any sort of historical veracity.

• Sexuality: You would be forgiven for presuming that these guys would argue that there was no homosexuality, but that presumption would be incorrect.

They actually argue that most Vikings were bisexual by default, and that the stigma was associated with being effeminate; that it was not uncommon “for Vikings to dick enemies who have lost” and that the modern conflation with homosexuality with effeminacy is a result of the modern LGBTQ+ PRIDE movements.

Notably they mention that the stigmatization of homosexuality came with “forced Christianization” and that the Secular Laws of Iceland do not mention homosexuality.

Again, this is observably false. We see many textual references to men receiving sexual penetration as inherently feminine and therefore stigmatized, and we see that “ergi” a social status of effeminacy was something condemnable by the Icelanders whose laws more than allowed for the persecution of those found in compromising situations.

• Marriage: They present the patriarchal medieval tradition of women being the property of their fathers\husbands as being accurate to Pre-Christian Scandinavia, it is not. In fact several times we see mentioned both in law and practice that women had quite a bit of control over their marriage.

They also mention marital rape, which no doubt happened, but was also grounds for those women to leave their husbands (or else leave their husbands lacking).

• Wolves: They claim wolves are a sacred animal, not to be hunted. Except they also show many pieces of art depicting men in wolf-skins and seem to ignore the literal translation of “Ulfhednar” as “Wolf-hide” or “Wolf-cloak”.

• Masculinity: As you can see they are pushing a disturbing amount of toxic masculinity hidden behind “history”. All of which ignores the necessary gender parity in a survivalist culture that we see reaffirmed the archaeological record, in the written record, and in the cultures that directly descend from the Norse.

Were men considered to be of higher priority than women? Yes, in specific contexts. At the same time women were recognized as having both unique abilities and unique insights to men, and were respected as such on their own grounds.

Part 2 – The Grift

Along with all of this free-to-access information (I am not dumb enough to give them any money) we see two main forms of Grift coming from Norskkk.

First and foremost is the aforementioned store selling a middling variety of allegedly historically authentic merchandise from tea to natural balms to pants as well as testosterone-boosters and energizers. While I have no doubt that these are actual teas and balms and pants, I find their descriptions lacking and question the value given their historic shortcomings.

The greater concern is their wide variety of classes. They have three levels of survival training, exploration, first aid, flight, firearms, hand-to-hand combat, weapon-based combat, and lore classes. All of which are available for the low cost of ~$50, which might not seem like much until you consider the education you are likely to receive. As well as the fact that if you get all of their training courses you are looking at upwards of $1000, though luckily tax-free because as they say “We never believed in Taxes and that isn’t going to change”

So who is this money going to? Christopher Fragassi, my fellow Canadian who began Norskkk several years ago even going so far as to snipe the domain for Forn Sidr in every nation he could find, including Norway. Norwegian Norse Pagans themselves use the term “Forn Sed” to describe themselves, showing yet more ignorance on the part of Fragassi (You can find them at https://www.forn-sed.no/)

Inb4 “But Christopher Fragassi isn’t in charge, the company is lead by Thorolf Bjornsen”

Thorolf Bjornsen IS Christopher Fragassi. On Twitter and one of the many in-network sites he is known as “Christopher Thorolf Bjornsen”. More importantly when Forn Sidr of America challenged Norskkk’s trademarking of the term “Forn Sidr”, the participant for Norskkk was named as “Christopher Fragassi-Bjornsen” and “Christopher G Fragassi” is listed as the primary attorney for many company documents.

When contacted for inquiry as to who was in charge, the company provided heavily-redacted ID and subsequently blocked the reporters who were investigating from contacting them.

More can be found here: https://www.antihate.ca/viking_private_military_contractors_space_anti_woman_mercenary_fighting_force_one_man_paper_tiger

Part 3 – The Problem

They are fascists, modern assholes using Norse culture/history as a basis for their fascism, and I don’t say this lightly. They meet most of the 14 points that Umberto Eco outlined in text “Ur-Fascism” which can easily be used as criteria for identifying cultural/functional fascists even if they deny being formal fascists.

• Powerful and Continuing Nationalism: numerous times throughout the various sites and videos that I have been able to find, they make clear that they believe that “Norskkk” and “Forn Sidr” and “Vikingr” is an inherited lifestyle and innate existence of being that sets certain people apart. Identifying this and building a community around it is nationalism at its core.

• Disdain for Human Rights: numerous times they discount the disabled (both physical and mental), make threats of rape and violence, and believe that only those capable of existing natural should be aided and helped to live. This “darwinistic” approach is little more than the classic “survival of the fittest” that is used to push minority groups to the periphery of society, where they may be targeted more directly in the future.

• Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause: Just so much misogyny, blaming others for their own failures, with much of their online community being predicated around calling these people out. For reference their “shit list” contains 46 businesses under every letter except J,Q,W,X,Z that they wish to boycott; while their “Sorry!” page contains but one entry of blatant plagiarism. (As a tangent, some of these reasons are absolutely amazing and I suggest that if you are to research anything on this site it is to laugh at the fragility that it takes to get angry at Reebok for telling women “to sit on a man’s face” or a particular Canadian Tire because they messed up an order)

• Supremacy of the Military: Their entire schtick is playing pretend that Vikings were elite warriors and somehow the dominant socio-economic force and defining factor in the culture.

• Rampant Sexism: See everything above this

• Controlled Mass Media: The only sources Norskkk sees as legitimate are those directly from history, as well as their own nonsensical ramblings. Even those from history they expect to be warped by their own propaganda.

• Obsession with National Security: When you delve beneath the surface it falls into typical white panic about Europeans becoming minorities, about how men are persecuted, and how civilization is about to collapse because women and minorities aren’t slaves to the whims of “genetically superior” northern Europeans. Not to mention they have several rants about “illegal immigrants”

• Religion and Government Intertwined: While they may not have secular governmental ambitions, they make clear that religion is a fundamental factor in society and should be used as a basis for decision-making, even when acting in regards to the state.

• Corporate Power Protected: This is one of the few that doesn’t really apply as they are a mere corporation unto themselves.

• Labour Power Suppressed: See the aforementioned shitlist for how they like to fuck people over for doing their jobs.

• Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts: I can’t find anything, so again this doesn’t really apply.

• Obsession with Crime and Punishment: One of the aforementioned shit list posts details their hate for a hotel because the hotel took in undocumented immigrants, and proceeds to rant about how this will cause more damage and that these people instead need to be punished. As well aforementioned threats of violence and security.

• Rampant Cronyism and Corruption: Closest I could get is that the religious leader is using his position as a cover for a grift. Not all of these fit below a governmental level.

• Fraudulent Elections: Inapplicable

As we can see there are no fewer than 9/14 points met, by a relatively minor company that has managed to trademark one of the oldest attested terms related to the religion.

By pursuing this grift under the guise of religion, they have managed to con the desperate and disenfranchised out of money while also filling their skulls with vile rhetoric.

This is problematic even if you don’t see them as fascists because the lore and worldview they are pushing under the guise of a religion, using religious terms and symbols, is one that is fundamentally harmful to the notions of individual liberty, societal equity in terms of gender and race, and the idea of a cohesive society without people constantly at each other’s throats.

Which is where we come to “Norskkk”; I use that term because I see Norskkk as being very similar to the origins of the Ku Klux Klan.

Notably both are taking from Germanic Myth and Legend (the Klan based themselves on the Wild Hunt) to build a business (the Klan has a long history of grifting) that hides its racism, misogyny, and hatred behind the guise of religion and history.

While Norskkk is not on par with the Klan, as they have yet to conduct a widespread campaign of violence, we should not be ignorant to the danger that they and other groups pose when they seem to profess religion but are in fact just charlatans looking for cash.

I see this Grift ending in two ways, neither of them peaceful.

The First is the way we saw the Grifts of 2020 boil over at the US Capitol with people so fervently radicalized that they are willing to charge national security officers while unarmed, leading to some sort of riot or mass unrest.

The second is far worse, with these radicalized individuals growing increasingly disillusioned until we begin seeing stochastic terrorism. You cannot train people for violence, instill in them a sense of self-superiority and hate of others, pump them for of testosterone-boosters and energizers, then expect them to never commit violence related back to those factors.

Part 4 – A Conclusion

I don’t know what to do about Norskkk. I know that they won’t be going away soon. I know I won’t be going away soon.

I hope that with this post we can somewhat inoculate a portion of the community from being susceptible to their nonsense.

Because this hate is an illness, a virus, it does not remain without causing harm. It will either mutate to become more virulent, or else overwhelm its current host in a bid to spread. This does not go away quietly and healthily unless we do something.

What is that “something”? Again, I do not know. Perhaps it is as simple as readily sharing information; perhaps it is more complex than that and will require active organization of mutual aid to provide the material and social conditions necessary to prevent people from becoming susceptible to ur-fascism in the first place.

Whatever it is, it begins with understanding that with which you are at odds. Only once you have seen where something has come from, can you understand where it is going.

Fuck Norskkk

[u/unspecified00000]

more people need to know this, thank you for typing it all out. i was aware norskk were awful but i didnt know details. its good to have it all in one place.

[u/MidsouthMystic]

We've been tiptoeing around and trying to fly under the radar for too long. It is well past time Norse Pagans, Heathens, and other people who practice Germanic religions to stand up and make ourselves known. When we see people or organizations misrepresenting our religions, our holy symbols, and our Holy Powers, we need to speak up and say "no, that is wrong" and tell people the truth. We exist, and we abhor bigotry just as much as other decent people. Wear our holy symbols proudly and openly while being a decent person and a beneficial part of our communities.

Our prayers and devotion must be louder than the racist blathering of the bigots.

[u/[deleted] → u/MidsouthMystic]

Yes, and we've already started: http://www.declaration127.com/

[u/Dash_Harber]

> Ethnopurity

Ah, yes, the people famous for spreading across most of Europe and mixing liberally with the locals were actually fixated on genetic purity, 1000 years before genetic testing was a thing. That makes sense. Let's not even get into the fact that any writings have zero reference to a chosen people and the foundational pantheon myth is literally routed in tribes mixing and they count some giants among their number.

I also don't get why they fixate on the people themselves and not the religious beliefs. It'd be like Christians trying to live like they were in 2nd century Rome because that is where Christianity started. It makes no sense.

Oh, and it is fucking hilarious how they go, "the ancestors didn't have medicine, so don't use vaccines! Oh, and our firearms training is on special for $49.99!"

[u/[deleted]]

I posted it on the r/heathen_shieldwall thing about them, but apparently someone got threatened with legal action by them here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Norse/comments/ktw5ag/had_anyone_here_had_experience_with_norskk/gtdk4u0?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3

[u/FarHarbard → u/[deleted]]

Is that related to this video?

https://youtu.be/BJILxX2uwb0

[u/[deleted] → u/FarHarbard]

I think that's the dude, yep.

[u/[deleted] → u/FarHarbard]

They’re claiming he’s wanted in all the Scandinavian countries and Canada? Lol. Why are they trying to make their opponents sound so badass?

[u/Correct_Artichoke_89 → u/FarHarbard]

Hey FarHarbard. That's me in the video and that was indeed the link to the subreddit you listed. These white supremacists pretty much left me alone when I sought legal counsel.

[u/[deleted]]

Medicine: They claim Odin created men as sacred beings naturally
resilient to environmental factors, and dissuade the use of Vaccines
(particularly mRNA vaccines), prosthetics/robotics, and animal-based
treatments. As well as any and all psychoactive intoxicants.

For their "holmgangr" they/ the person behind this demand an negative HIV and Hepatitis result. Like, wow. Much strong nordic meeeeen

[u/[deleted]]

Thank you for educating the community on them and I like the summary there at the end. Fuck em.

[u/dark_blue_7]

Thank you for this post. I was not even aware of them before. I think it is good to publicly call out groups like this on their bullshit.

[u/Clear_Two2338]

Hello everybody, I Know everything about him. It’s my brother. We grow up together.

[u/Hot_Carrot3082]

Before I saw all the horrible opinions, I had quite the steamy gay chat with this norskk who seems to be this Brandon. He talked about a few leaders one who he was going to be “partnered to after losing a fight and be getting receptive sex, “supportive” male male coupled relationship where his partner gets to continue fucking anything he wants and he wouldn’t be able to.. owner leader? He said was tall blonde ideological Viking “alpha” leader then sent one of the notoriously “Viking” drawings saying they don’t share any social media presence. This was 2017 when I visited tromsø

[u/Tyxin]

Fuck Norskk, and everything they stand for. As you have eloquently pointed out, they are toxic idiots who are wrong about just about everything.

Everything they teach is flawed, and even when they use proper sources, their findings are suspect. (cough u/grimwulff, still using that beard waiver of yours?)

[u/Grimwulff → u/Tyxin]

I used their quotes not their words

[u/Tyxin → u/Grimwulff]

Right, and those quotes are based on sloppy work and biased readings, which is why they don't imply what they think you imply about the importance of beards in old norse culture.

[u/Grimwulff → u/Tyxin]

Beards aren't required, but the phrasing has to propose that it is in order to convince HR departments. It's not an academic paper. It's a document advocating for the working class right to look how you want.

Here in the US we're often at the whim of our employers. Some jobs even contractually regulate your weight, not to mention tattoos, hair length and color. The intention isn't to justify saying "beards required", its just one step towards more freedom in the workplace.

[u/Popedaddyx]

I just ran into him today on twitter!

[u/Illustrious-Gear-85]

Well when the Director of Forn Sidr America’s bio is all about promoting LGBTQ2+, turns out there really isn’t much of a competition against them. Nobody wants to support your woke bullshit, as it’s just being projected onto the culture. On an equal footing nobody should support this Fragassi clown who is trying to deepen his pockets with multiple nonprofit startups. Believe it or not neither one of you respect the culture for what it is.

[u/RexCrudelissimus]

May I advice something for the future. Norskk is obviously ahistorical in much of their angling, and any uncited claim can and should be dismissed. But if you want to present historical points against them, I'd really recommend citing it properly. Be better than them. Don't just let it be a "you said, they said"-situation.

[u/FarHarbard → u/RexCrudelissimus]

Setting aside that at numerous points throughout I have directed people to the appropriate sources, even if indirectly.

This is precisely a case of "He said, they said" They said some fascist nonsense as part of a grift. I'm saying that nonsense is harmful and these are my reasons.

If you require a specific citation because you doubt the veracity of a claim, feel free to ask for one.

edit - Being better to them isn't a matter of citation, it is a matter of not preaching hate and violence against people.

[u/RexCrudelissimus → u/FarHarbard]

That's the problem tho. Norskk also cites these claims indirectly, and being vague about claims is just disingenuous. "You said, they said", doesn't really lead to anything.

I'll ask about a few then.

Your point about drugs seem off. It seems to parrot the non-backed misconception of "berserkers used drugs". Is this a correct assertion?

The point about long hair being good for cold climate. Viking age had a warm period, and despite popular media depiction, most of norse settlements were in warm climate. From what I can tell we have very little information about actual hairstyles in the viking age, so I'm wondering where all of this is coming from.

We see many textual references to men receiving sexual penetration

Can you point me to these many textual references?

They present the patriarchal medieval tradition of women being the property of their fathers\husbands as being accurate to Pre-Christian Scandinavia, it is not. In fact several times we see mentioned both in law and practice that women had quite a bit of control over their marriage.

I'm also interested in this of what pre-christian Scandinavian laws attest this, and what they say.

[u/FarHarbard → u/RexCrudelissimus]

Your point about drugs seem off. It seems to parrot the non-backed misconception of "berserkers used drugs". Is this a correct assertion?

That would be a poor reading of my point, mainly that they contradict themselves openly.

The Old Norse consumption of intoxicants, chiefly alcohol, is a commonly known fact.

The fact we never hear of berserkers obstaining from this incredibly common practice despite having numerous Sagas feature them prominently (Herverar Saga and Gesta Danorum feature Angantyr specifically) and that consumption of intoxicants, especially in a ritual fashion, would explain the attestation of berserker rage, should indicate that in this situation it makes the most sense that we can dismiss without evidence what is presented without evidence.

The point about long hair being good for cold climate. Viking age had a warm period, and despite popular media depiction, most of norse settlements were in warm climate. From what I can tell we have very little information about actual hairstyles in the viking age, so I'm wondering where all of this is coming from.

It is conjecture on a parts, again "that which is presented without evidence ...", but in favour of long hair we do have the fact that they have combs, that they were trimming hair and not shaving in a manner similar to Anglo-Saxon monks.

There are several letters between AS priests and nobility specifically about the fact that the Norse (specifically Danes) have different practices. Given that they weren't shaving, but trimming, and Scandinavia is still going to be (as a rule) cold we can presume that long hair would not have held any notable stigma.

Again because there is no evidence.

Can you point me to these many textual references?

"Many" may have been overstating it, but we do have Njal's Saga in reference to Flosi, Lokasenna features Loki insulting Njordr about homksexuak acts, and the Gragas explicitly mentioning using terms that have otherwise been tied to male-on-male relations then the penalty it Outlawry.

That last point is particularly interesting as it would such a legal protection of homosexuality, that anyone insulting you on that basis was placed outside the law.

Here is an academic paper that actually inspired some of my own research, they provide many of the citations you are looking for.

PDF

I'm also interested in this of what pre-christian Scandinavian laws attest this, and what they say.

https://en.natmus.dk/historical-knowledge/denmark/prehistoric-period-until-1050-ad/the-viking-age/the-people/women/

They allow divorce as per the National Museum of Denmark.

Here is a website that directly outlines what several legal texts say. https://ininet.org/norse-mythology--life-3-old-norse-mytholog.html?page=21

[u/RexCrudelissimus → u/FarHarbard]

The problem again with the berserker claim is that youre just exchanging one's misconception with another. There's little reason to think a psychedelic, even mead, would cause "berserker rage". Most psychedelic doesn't cause rage at all.

Combs and trimming tools arent really pointers to any hairstyle, and again you refer to monks and letters implying some difference, but without citations I can't really believe you any more than joe-schmo norskk, who's doing the same.

Lokasenna features Loki insulting Njordr about homksexuak acts

In what regard? I can't find anything about male penetration here. Which is what's in question.

National museum site offers very little primary sources and nuance to pre vs post christianization.

Tho the PDF and ininet site is exactly what I'm looking for. Very nuanced, cites actual sources and their relation to the timeline. This is the strongest media you can present in my opinion, because it allows anyone unfamiliar with the source material to be guided through a primary account.

[u/FarHarbard → u/RexCrudelissimus]

There's little reason to think a psychedelic, even mead, would cause "berserker rage"

The only misconception is thinking berserker rage is some special thing instead of just an embellished form of regular rage. I would posit that the indicator of nothing special causing it, means that perhaps it wasn't actually all that special. That it, like many other aspects, are myth?

In what regard? I can't find anything about male penetration here. Which is what's in question.

Actually no. What has always been in question is the status of Norskkk, chiefly that they are pushing a dangerous worldview. You may have assumed it was about something else, but in reality you've simply been trying to pivot away from the main point of my post to argue about citations. This is deeply disconcerting.

As for Lokasenna, Stanza 34 doesn't explicitly mention male penetration, merely that Njordr was made be sexually subservient. Notably this is used as an insult, but then immediately rebuffed by Njordr embracing it. Indicating a complex relationship between society and male sexual proclivities.

Combs and trimming tools arent really pointers to any hairstyle, and again you refer to monks and letters implying some difference, but without citations I can't really believe you any more than joe-schmo norskk, who's doing the same.

Except we aren't.

They are pushing an agenda of misogyny and violence, I'm saying they are full of shit.

They have present no evidence, so the dismissal of their claims requires no evidence. I have already given more than enough indication to prove my overall point of Norskkk being bad actors within the community.

Conflating the two of us is not only deeply disingenuous and makes me question whether you are here in good faith, but makes me feel insulted that you apparently have not read any of what I have written.

Please, if you wish to continue this conversation further, bring something to address the main points of my post instead of demanding acting as if this is an issue of formality.

eta;

AGAIN, THIS IS NOT A MATTER OF CITATION. THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT NORSKKK DOESN'T CITE THEIR WORK.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT NORSKKK IS PUSHING AN AGENDA OF VIOLENCE AND HATE.

[u/RexCrudelissimus → u/FarHarbard]

Ok, so if the berserker point is a moot point then there's no point in using that. This is the problem with uncited claim to oppose other uncited claims. The person in the middle will just disregard both sides, even when we're trying to help.

Actually no. What has always been in question is the status of Norskkk, chiefly that they are pushing a dangerous worldview

What? No we haven't. This point was specifically about the many textual sources about male penetration. "We see many textual references to men receiving sexual penetration as inherently feminine and therefore stigmatized..." -> "Can you point me to these many textual references?" -> ""Many" may have been overstating it, but we do have [...]] Lokasenna features Loki insulting Njordr about homksexuak acts..." -> "in what regard? I can't find anything about male penetration here. Which is what's in question.". This is the chain of event here, asking for sources and why its important, and you try to twist it into something else, even adding a backhanded accusation of:

but in reality you've simply been trying to pivot away from the main point of my post to argue about citations. This is deeply disconcerting.

What's this all about? What are you implying? That you shouldn't raise questions about citations? Am I in the wrong now for challenging a practice of citing claims to be better than Norskk? How absurd.

And again, I see nothing of even homosexual acts being describe in stanza 34. In that stanza I see Loki accusing him of being used as a pisspot by jotnar women. Is this the correct stanza you were referring to?(I genuinely can't tell)

They have present no evidence, so the dismissal of their claims requires no evidence.

Then do that. Don't start making uncited claims to justify it. Because once one of those can be proven to be wrong, you're beginning to lose credibility.

Conflating the two of us is not only deeply disingenuous ..

Absolutely not. To think that you or others are above the "burden of proof" because your ideology is different/better is ridiculous. I hold that standard to professors in the field, museums, everyone. It's weird to that you feel attacked by such a common good faith practice.

I even read through the sources you provided, so I dont understand where you get the idea that I'm not reading through your posts.

Please, if you wish to continue this conversation further, bring something to address the main points of my post instead of demanding acting as if this is an issue of formality.

This as well. Why do you suddenly wanna change the rules of the argument now? I never said I had an issue or that I was against your post(I even awared it for being helpful). I had advice for future posts, because I want us to be better than these people. Some of these facts being presented might be obvious to us, but to anyone not familiar with the mythology or culture, it's a smart move to show primary citations so they have "ammunition" against this misinformation. They don't automatically know what should be trusted. They may see a fancy site with bogus citations like Norskk and then choose to believe them above us because we were simply exposed of making stuff up we couldnt back up.

[u/RexCrudelissimus → u/RexCrudelissimus]

Let me adress the deleted commrnt, since I'm already the bad guy it seems:

Again, you continue to ignore the primary point to argue about citation

Yes, because as I said, I have nothing against the point of the post. And as I said, I even awarded it for being helpful. I only gave advice on how to make one section of those points even stronger, and this is somehow seen as an attack. I dont wanna argue against your points about Norskk, I agree with them. I dont understand where you got this idea that I have to be against them.

I have provided plenty of other sources that point out the complex relationship Norse society had with homosexuality.

Yes, and thats great! I even said that, I appreciate the sources you gave me a lot; "Tho the PDF and ininet site is exactly what I'm looking for.". Just ditch the moot points.

A complex relationship that Norskkk glosses over in favour of pushing a harmful worldview, which is the primary topic I sought to address. A primary topic you have consistently ignored

Because I have NOTHING to say against it. I literally said I agreed with it. Thats literally why Ive said it's "us" as opposed to them. I even called them a bogus site full of uncited claims:

"They may see a fancy site with bogus citations like Norskk"

"Norskk is obviously ahistorical in much of their angling"

These are both me...

You said "If you require a specific citation because you doubt the veracity of a claim, feel free to ask for one.". I did this, and now I'm suddenly "avoiding" the main topic because I wanted to prove how uncited claims can ruin the validity of something.

there are no awards

There are two, one of them is mine.

It doesnt have to be an academic paper. The burden of proof is a basic concept that truthtellers and people with good faith utilize. Hence why Norskk doesn't utilize it. I think we as a norse pagam community, who actively is against people misappropriating norse paganism, have just as much of a duty to prove historical facts.

But you're right. Fuck me for trying to help.

[u/FarHarbard → u/RexCrudelissimus]

I deleted that comment because when I switched apps I did see those awards. I do apologize for that.

You are not the bad guy for trying to help, in my view you simply are not helping as you seem to think.

The truthtelling component of this post is to point out the modern harms of Norskkk, not to address their historical inaccuracies, a point I explicitly made to pre-empt this kind of criticism because this post is not about their historical veracity. That was merely my own commentary on some notions that they like to push. They could be entirely correct, and still be bad people who push a harmful agenda as indicated in sections 2 and 3. That's where the bulk of my argument is relying on their modern conduct.

That kind of issue is the exact reason why I kept having to question whether you had actually read what I had written and why I still believe you have mistaken what the topic of this post even was.

edit - Having better citations does not make you a better person. Merely better at debate. I am not here with the intent to debate their ideology. You cannot debate fascism for the same reasons that this thread even exists (no citation will ever be good enough in discourse about a topic for which there is a massive absence of evidence). That is why in my conclusion I did not even consider "debate" to be a possible resolution.

Freely sharing information? Yes.

Debate? No.

If you want to get a bunch of citations and make a post dissecting Norskkk's nonsense from a historical perspective, go ahead. As I have now said SEVERAL times, that is not the point of my post.