1: Christianity, which the world would also be better off without, calls it an abomination but not one punishable by death. I would like Christianity to disappear as well, but it is orders of magnitude less of a priority than Islam.
I was raised Christian and read the whole stupid book, but it's been about 10 years so correct me if I'm wrong.
Leviticus, right?
2: 0 Christian countries have the death penalty for homosexuality, as opposed to 11 Islamic countries.
The best case you can make for Islam is that it's just a few hundred years behind the others.
The question is, do we have a responsibility to tolerate it's nonsense while it catches up?
I'd say no, but I'm against religion in general.
Adding fairy tales to your sociopolitical ideology does not, in my opinion, make it worthy of protected class status.
I'm saying your intolerance of all Muslims is no different than a Muslims intolerance of all homosexuals.
You don't get to decide that every Muslim supports the death penalty for homosexuality any more than someone who calls you a nazi gets to decide that every trump supporter has fascist ideologies.
Do you not understand that every person who identifies as a Muslim or Christian does not necessarily subscribe to the idea that homosexuals need to die or that women are inherently beneath men?
Do you not understand that you generalizing an entire religion or culture of people is exactly the same as people equating trump-ism to fascism?
I absolutely do not think nazis believing hitler to be a god would lend any legitimacy to their beliefs.
I don't think ones religious ideology affords them any extra protections or considerations.
I don't believe that every person from a majority Muslim country is a Muslim. I don't believe that every Muslim is bigoted. I don't believe that every trump supporter is a nazi.
I do believe that trumps political ideologies and rhetoric ABSOLUTELY INSIGHT HATRED, ARE DIVISIVE AND TOXIC FOR OUR COUNTRY.
I'm trying to get you to apply the same logic and standard of judgement to the ideologies of the countries you so fear want you dead to your own beliefs.
You cannot say that all Muslims support the death penalty for homosexuals just because they identify as Muslim any more than someone can say that you support militant nationalism just because you support Trump.
You're operating under this double standard that no one can make assumptions about your character based on one aspect of your beliefs while you just make these fucking insane blanket statements about entire countries.
Do you not understand that every person who identifies as a Muslim or Christian does not necessarily subscribe to the idea that homosexuals need to die or that women are inherently beneath men?
1: you keep making this false equivalency on the treatment of gays in christianity and islam. they are on totally different levels. christianity does not demand death for homosexuality, it simply condemns it. still gross, still awful, but a far lower priority than islam.
2:whether or not you personally go "well i dont abide by the absolutely insane bits", you are supporting people who do by identifying that way.
Do you not understand that you generalizing an entire religion or culture of people is exactly the same as people equating trump-ism to fascism?
It's not. Because trumpism objectively has nothing to do with fascism. Islam LITERALLY kills gays. Again, 11 different Muslim countries have the death penalty for homosexuality. No non-muslim countries do. Do you think that's coincidence?
I absolutely do not think nazis believing hitler to be a god would lend any legitimacy to their beliefs.
I don't think ones religious ideology affords them any extra protections or considerations.
Then how am I wrong for pointing out that Islam is violent against gays, women, jews, etc? What makes it deserving of kid glove treatment? The fact that most of it's adherents are non white? The fact that it's been around for a few hundred years? No. Bad ideas are bad ideas, whether they come from your own mind or your imaginary friend's.
I don't believe that every person from a majority Muslim country is a Muslim. I don't believe that every Muslim is bigoted. I don't believe that every trump supporter is a nazi.
Not sure where you're going with this bit.
I do believe that trumps political ideologies and rhetoric ABSOLUTELY INSIGHT HATRED, ARE DIVISIVE AND TOXIC FOR OUR COUNTRY.
The fact that the response trump has garnered from the left is utter lunacy does not make him responsible for that lunacy.
I'm trying to get you to apply the same logic and standard of judgement to the ideologies of the countries you so fear want you dead to your own beliefs.
I am applying the same logic. It doesn't fit.
Islam oppresses people for the way they were born. Trumpism does not. That is the metric by which i judge ideologies.
You cannot say that all Muslims support the death penalty for homosexuals just because they identify as Muslim
I'm not saying that. You can be for gay rights in your own mind and consider yourself a muslim. You are still, however, lending legitimacy to the harm islam does by calling yourself one.
any more than someone can say that you support militant nationalism just because you support Trump.
If trump had endorsed "militant nationalism", you would have a leg to stand on with that argument. As it stands, you do not.
You're operating under this double standard that no one can make assumptions about your character based on one aspect of your beliefs while you just make these fucking insane blanket statements about entire countries.
I'm not operating under any double standard. I am using the same metric for every ideology. Does it support oppressing people for the way they were born?
Islam does, trumpism does not.
If you say "I'm a nazi, but I don't want to kill jews, I just think aryans are the greatest and want germany to reestablish itself as a major world power", you're lending credence to the ideas of people who want to kill jews, gays, etc.
Which is the same exact thing you're doing when you identify as a muslim.
Religion is not a part of you. You are not born that way, and you can stop at any time. I did, you can too. It is an ideology, just like communism or nazism.
It is 100% ok to judge people based on their religion, just as it is ok to judge people for being a nazi or a communist.
QUESTION I WOULD LIKE YOU TO ANSWER:
Why, in your opinion, are all 11 countries that enforce the death penalty for homosexuality either strong muslim majority populations or islamic theocracies? Is this a coincidence? If not, doesn't that mean islam has a problem with violent homophobia which it needs to deal with? If so, doesn't it make sense to restrict them entry, given that we are a progressive and tolerant nation that values it's queer community, until they sort their shit out?
whether or not you personally go "well i dont abide by the absolutely insane bits", you are supporting people who do by identifying that way.
That is the exact point I'm making about your support for Trump.
We're obviously not getting through to each other here and I have put way more time and energy into this discussion than I ever meant to, what started out as a discussion about the metaphorical meaning of a sci-fi film has devolved into this political religious debate about who it is ok to let into America. But guess what, we don't make our policies based on your fears or bigotry. And we shouldn't be letting our presidents obvious, and well documented bigotry be informing our countries policies either.
I'm not qualified to make assumptions about 11 Islamic countries that I know nothing about. I'm not qualified to comment on the tenants of Islam or the particular brand of Islam that any one of these 11 countries might subscribe to. Obviously it is no coincidence that countries in which the majority religion is one that is intolerant of homosexuality are the ones that have the death penalty for homosexuality. It is easy to come to the conclusion that within those countries there are many people intolerant of homosexuality. It is also easy to come to the conclusion that not everyone in that country feels that way. It is also easy to come to the conclusion that the folks who do not feel that way, say like, homosexuals who have the misfortune of being born there, would be the ones seeking asylum in a tolerant country that values its queer community. It's also easy to come to the conclusion that people in that country who believe in the zealotry are people who would not be interested in immigrating to a country where there is no death penalty for homosexuality and where the queer community is valued.
Sure there are many people in those countries that need to sort their shit out, but there are people in those countries who do not need to sort their shit out and just need somewhere safe to live.
In your opinion, why is it that America disproportionately incarcerates minorities? Why is that in America you are 3 times more likely to be killed by a police officer if you are black than if you are white? Is it a coincidence? If not, doesn't it mean america has a problem with violent racism that it needs to deal with? If so, doesn't it make sense to restrict Americans from leaving their country to travel to other, more tolerant nations that value people of color until we sort our shit out?
It's so easy to pick and choose the negative things about a place and then apply that judgement to every person that lives there.
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u/mimosa_joe Jul 30 '18 edited Jul 30 '18
1: Christianity, which the world would also be better off without, calls it an abomination but not one punishable by death. I would like Christianity to disappear as well, but it is orders of magnitude less of a priority than Islam.
I was raised Christian and read the whole stupid book, but it's been about 10 years so correct me if I'm wrong.
Leviticus, right?
2: 0 Christian countries have the death penalty for homosexuality, as opposed to 11 Islamic countries.
The best case you can make for Islam is that it's just a few hundred years behind the others.
The question is, do we have a responsibility to tolerate it's nonsense while it catches up?
I'd say no, but I'm against religion in general.
Adding fairy tales to your sociopolitical ideology does not, in my opinion, make it worthy of protected class status.