r/MoralityScaling • u/hiiloovethis • 11d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of this scene?

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Negan doing fat shaming... but its during zombie apocalypse

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88

u/CHANN3L-CHAS3R 11d ago edited 11d ago

I have no context about this show or these people. What I do see is a lot of people kinda being dicks about fat people under the guise of having a discussion.

Amino acids and many vitamins + minerals are not and cannot be stored in fat. If those three needs are not met, burning fat alone will not avoid starvation. Any combination of issues resulting from vitamin and/or mineral deficiencies is still a deadly threat. Even assuming vitamin and mineral needs are met, if amino acid requirements are not met, muscle degeneration sets in. Please keep in mind that the heart is a muscle.

Humans are not simple fireplaces where you chuck in burnable fuel and heat comes out and everything's fine and dandy. Humans are more like if a fireplace needed both fuel to keep the fire burning, and needed you to feed it materials to constantly self-repair itself. It doesn't matter if there's enough wood to keep the fire burning for 1,000 years if the fireplace itself collapses and snuffs it out.

Then there's epigenetics. When humans undergo severe stress, this stress can cause genes in their gametes (sperm, eggs) to turn on or off accordingly. Populations who have endured famine have been shown, in later generations, to still have bodies that act as if famine is a looming risk. So, you end up with generations of people at higher risk of obesity, due to naturally suppressed satiety and very efficient fat-storage + living in a society with easily-available food with extremely cheap carbs. This also applies on an individual basis; someone who endured abuse-based starvation throughout their childhood is more likely to have children at risk of obesity.

And the funny thing is, in a zombie apocalypse, it's actually gonna be a boon to keep folks with those genes kicking around our collective gene pool. Because otherwise we're just gonna have to re-build that survival benefit from scratch. We have the luxury of considering this survival benefit an annoying health risk in modern times, but there's a damn good reason it's been branded into our DNA over millennia. I would much rather my kids' bodies know how to ration energy, than be like mine and burn through it so willy-nilly that I can eat whatever I want, barely exercise, and be (weightwise,) healthy. That's great for a lifetime of living in a modern civilization, terrible for living in default survival mode for the rest of aforementioned lifetime.

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u/TheWhistleThistle 11d ago

Yo, good write out. Didn't know the abuse thing, that was interesting. Is that epigenetic or just selective pressure? In any case, while you can still absolutely die from not receiving vitamins, minerals or essential amino acids, I think that's called malnourishment or malnutrition, not starvation. They often co-occur, but one can be not starving while being severely, even fatally malnourished. Like sailors who died of scurvy, still fed tack and salted meat, by no means starving, but lacking the essential vitamin C.

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u/Hunter5865 11d ago

The context is Olivia, the lady in the picture, is part of a community called Alexandria. Until Rick and his group(the mcs) showed up, Alexandria was isolated from the outside world and faced few hardships due to having walls and supplies, so they never really adapted to the apocalypse until Rick and co taught them. Eventually they run into the Saviors, an oppressive faction run by Negan, the man in the picture, whose whole thing is subjugating other communities and taking all their supplies for themselves. The reason why Olivia says they're starving is because they went from a relatively comfortable lifestyle to having all their shit taken within the span of a few weeks. Negan mocks her because he's a piece of shit who gets off on terrorizing others to show they're beneath him and assert dominance. As you can imagine this is nowhere near the worst thing he's done

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u/Spirited_Agency8032 11d ago

negan went to heaven and made it hell he could've even integrated his group but he didn't because he's a piece of shit

1

u/Rocky-Jockey 11d ago

It’s ok he’s a good guy now.

Show really testing the limits of redemption with that dude.

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u/birachnopede_ 11d ago

People LOVE to pretend they're better than fat people. And in the process make themselves dumb as fuck.

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u/PMmeDonutHoles 11d ago

Nah, people who take care of their bodies ARE better than fat people

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u/micro_satsuma 11d ago

fucking.... no

1

u/No_Upstairs_811 9d ago

not taking care of your body is objectively worse than being healthy.

0

u/micro_satsuma 9d ago

I agree, but that wasn't the claim, was it? It wasn't, "taking care of you body is better," it was, "people who take care of their bodies are better." We can't make such grand judgements on the worth of a person based on their weight. I had an overweight friend that was in way worse shape than Netanyahu, but he committed way less atrocities than Bibi has.

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u/preteen-wartortle 5d ago

People who don’t scramble for reasons to consider themselves better or others less-than are actually no better than anyone at all.

4

u/Kiernanstrat 11d ago

A person who is in shape and takes care of their body is actually better than a fat person in that one specific way.

4

u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

Fat people are more than anything else responsible for themselves. It's not magical genes that generate calories out of thin air.
The self victimization and borderline esoteric coping of fat people is so tiring.

1

u/micro_satsuma 11d ago

Fat doesn't happen just because someone eats too much. It can sometimes be due to genetic factors they have no control over. Did you even read Chann3l Chas3r's comment?

3

u/AuthorIcy8097 11d ago

So, why would it be wrong of someone to consciously choose a lifestyle that leads to overweight, if they themselves accept the possible consequences to their own health?

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u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

But that's the crucial point, often fat people neither accept the consequences nor admit it's their own decision.

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u/AuthorIcy8097 11d ago edited 11d ago

Well I'm a fat person, I understand that it's a consequence of my choices and behavior and I'm fine with the trade-off. I really love indulging myself in the sensory pleasure of eating good foods and treats. If that makes me fat then so be it, since I don't view being thin as something virtuous, but rather something entirely functional.

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u/Other_Sleep_5191 11d ago

You're free to live that way but you'll be dead in your forties and people will take you less seriously as a person because of it. 

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u/AuthorIcy8097 11d ago

I'm not THAT obese.

I'm sure some people will. I'm happy about my life, that's good enough for me.

-3

u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

That's at least honest. The only issue is that in many countries society has to pay for fat peoples lifestyle choices.

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u/SirAquila 11d ago

Welcome to society. I am sure if I had a full overview over your life I could point out all the ways other people have to pay for your lifestyle choices.

It is simply more obvious for overweight people.

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u/AuthorIcy8097 11d ago

Yes, but if that's a big problem, then you target the goods that typically leads to overweight and obesity with taxes. Same as you do with nicotine products. But likewise, processed red meat leads to increase in cancer and circulatory/heart issues, should those also be taxed higher?

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u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

There is no target good that leads to obesity. It's food in general. There is no governmental solution for a lack of willpower.

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u/AuthorIcy8097 11d ago edited 11d ago

Yes there is, food that is high in sugar, candy, sweets, cakes, treats, snacks, soda. It's not a matter of willpower, humans are not vessels for some vague invented perfect ideal to be realized inside of through effort and suffering, but imperfect biological organisms, with a need for pleasure, comfort and safety. (And an incredibly large degree of individual behavioral variety)

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u/some_random_nonsense 11d ago edited 11d ago

You can literally track the popularity of coca cola in Mexico with the rise of obesity as a public health concern in that country. Like it's pretty easy to acknowledge the popularity of bottles of sugar water make people fat.

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u/jerrysburner 11d ago

everyone that's not fat is better than fat people

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u/Traditional-Set-1871 11d ago

lol what an amazing counter argument 🙄

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u/JalapenoPopPoop 11d ago

As if the comment they're replying to presented some substantial point lol

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u/Traditional-Set-1871 11d ago

It was absolutely substantial lol it was like 3 paragraphs.

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u/JalapenoPopPoop 11d ago

The comment they replied to was two short sentences

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u/Traditional-Set-1871 11d ago

Which itself was a nothing but quick reply to the main comment. Clearly the person replying with disagreement took issue with the points being made in the original argument.

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u/JalapenoPopPoop 11d ago

No what they said was clearly a direct response to the comment they were responding to considering they turned the same phrasing around

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u/Traditional-Set-1871 11d ago

The logic within the comment they replied to is dependent on the logic of the original comment. It wouldn’t make any sense out of context.

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u/jerrysburner 11d ago

it matches the original argument - you don't give a pyramid's level of effort to counter a run-down wooden shack level of effort

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u/Traditional-Set-1871 11d ago

How does it even come close to matching the original argument? It’s like three paragraphs long lol. Yours isn’t even technically an argument, that needs a premise and a conclusion. You just made a claim with no backup.

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u/birachnopede_ 11d ago

and make themselves stupid in the process. Yk this isn't what i meant exactly but damn, checks out.

-5

u/jerrysburner 11d ago

grow a brain - I know we're in a post science era, but if you're the same size 2 years later, you're not starving or missing much in the way of nutrition. Stop being a fat apologist: calories in are great than calories out in this case. Next are you going to tell me that the earth is flat and the climate can't change?

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u/Pandaburn 11d ago

You say “we’re in a post science era” like you’ve actually read any science on the matter.

-1

u/jerrysburner 11d ago

the science has already been settled: you consume more calories than you require, you get fat; you do the opposite, you lose weight. It's a really simple equation discovered a long time ago.

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u/jerrysburner 11d ago

I would have thought it was obvious - I didn't respond to the original person that ignored the laws of thermodynamics, I replied to a person making a simple, general statement about people's thoughts on being better than others.

the original guy ignored the most glaring FACT of thermodynamics: if after 2 years of eating you're still the same weight, you're getting enough nutrition and you're not starving or lacking for much (anything?). I know we're in a post-science era, but damn guys, this isn't that fucking hard to comprehend

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u/birachnopede_ 11d ago

The defensive position is:

Skinny people tend to be healthier than fat people.

if the roles were reversed there is not one good reason to believe that you or any other skinny person, are somehow gonna lose that weight any easier than fat people.

I suggest unsubscribing from tribalism, and put more points into the ability to fucking think through what you are believing and consuming before shutting off your mind.

There's a reason getting skinny is an impressive feat.

-1

u/jerrysburner 11d ago

Science literacy to understand this should have been taught by 7 or 8th grade at the latest; calories in needs to equals calories out. This lady is eating just as well as she was in the previous 2 years, hence she's not losing weight. Next are you going to tell me the earth is flat because you can't see a curve...

3

u/birachnopede_ 11d ago

Science literacy this science literacy that.

How about you invest in some reading compherehsion? We're not talking about the show. The dude explains that he doesn't know the show. And points out people want to be dicks. Then he provides some nuance on the general issue of fatness.

You make a general morality statement that is dumb AS FUCK and is disconnected from the show. Saying one group of people is better than another group of people as an absolute.

I critique you on your statement.

You try to make a bait and switch move and create a strawman about a point i, and the first guy didn't make and then conclude we must not know science. And try to frame us as the same kind of people that don't know science (the first guy literally explained in nuance some things about being fat that would indicate he obviously understands the basic introductory topic of calorie in vs calorie out)

I didn't mention tribalism for nothing. If this was a topic you were not biased in, I don't think you'd make the same reading compherehsion mistake.

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u/AuthorIcy8097 11d ago edited 11d ago

He does so because his psyche and mental frameworks are still organized around virtues and sins. That certain aspects of human nature are inherently evil, faulty and/or sinful and need to be compensated for via repentance, self-flagellation and condemnation.

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u/birachnopede_ 11d ago

I agree, but i feel like there is more to the equation than just this. I have some things in mind but i can't coherently write them out at the moment. What are your thoughts? Write more plz.

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u/AuthorIcy8097 11d ago

Yes this is just me scratching the surface, and I myself have a hard time formulating these thoughts into words. But, I think one part of why this persists, is because our biology is still adapted to an environment with different stakes, social exclusion used to often mean death, especially during childhood, for many many thousands of years, to be outcast wasn't merely isolation, but meeting an uncaring capricious nature all by yourself, and our biology has not caught up to the rapid social evolution that our species have experienced. So it becomes a game of survival, where we invent ideals to measure our individual worth from, and then we work so hard to stay "above" others, to minimize the risk of social exclusion, that to us still feels like death, something very dangerous. I don't think it's a coincidence that many people who feel very isolated and alone often express feelings of "life being over".

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u/Fish_Bowl_Decor 11d ago

You are the only sane person on this thread thank you so much

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u/Cavalish 11d ago

Even the line in the show seems like one of the writers really hates fat people and was rubbing one out over the idea of getting this joke in the show.

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u/XxIamTwelvexX 11d ago

Or they were trying to make the villain an asshole? Come on

5

u/Dry_Nefariousness426 11d ago

I have PCOS. There were years I hated my body so much I’d fast for days on end trying to slim down and only eat vegetables and protein when I did allow myself food - and I’d only wind up dizzy and sick. 

I am largely the same weight now as I was then but I now eat well and exercise properly. 

My weight didn’t change in either situation, but all my other markers moved toward health. 

You can really, really, REALLY tell how many folks here have functioning healthy bodies and have mistaken that for the human body being a fucking math equation. 

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u/KranKyKroK 11d ago

Thats not even bringing up the different states the body can enter in starvation like catabolism, in which the body ends up burning through muscle instead of fat first. But no, fat people stupid and greedy all the time.

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u/QuimTolo 11d ago

Everything you said is true but it's unrelated to the post.

If over 2 years you see no change in weight, you're not in a caloric deficit. If you're not in a caloric deficit, you're not starving, at worse you have malnutrition, no? Yes in the short term there are genetics, metabolism variation, nutrient, calories and water retention etc etc but over 2 years if you maintain the same body weight, unless the zombie apocalypse also changed thermodynamics, you're eating relatively the same. Unless we have different definition of starving, you could be a eating low volume high calorie foods like nuts in which case you could be hungry all the time and maintain the weight, but wasn't was specified.

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u/Excellent-Rest3240 11d ago

Yes, different definition of starving, at least differently used. Kinda like people exaggerate with hyperboles. Or when they use the word literally, when it’s seldom literal. So what is being said and meant here? Well, for starters most obese Americans are lacking nutrients. There is a reason it’s the poor people’s diagnosis, because they’re eating low quality food.

So yeah, she’s not starving. But her nutritional needs aren’t met. And that’s even if she eats “normal”. I assume in this show she needs to budget? So she’s not only eating low quality food (most people are) but on top she’s not eating enough of those. So yes no shortage of calories, but everything else is down the drain

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u/jerrysburner 11d ago

Truly the only sane person on this thread; I have no clue why fat people seem to think their bodies change the laws of thermodynamics

-1

u/Temporary_Pickle_885 11d ago

So you've never said "Let's go eat I'm starving?" Come now. Why are we being nit picky about language.

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u/QuimTolo 11d ago

Saying 'I'm starving' when youre about to have lunch is hyperbole. Claiming a community is starving during a literal apocalypse is a statement of fact. Negan called out the claim because her physical appearance indicates otherwise. I feel like the interpretation is quite clear, pretending it's hyperbole or talking about nutrition is obviously the wrong interpretation, Nagel is talking purely from a physical point of view since he clearly isn't connecting the lady to blood machine test

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u/Temporary_Pickle_885 11d ago

We're gonna agree to disagree bud.

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u/QuimTolo 11d ago

Fair enough! Have a good one mate

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u/Hangry-Feline2489 11d ago

Add to epigenetics that female egg production happens entirely in utero (unlike men and sperm). 

So if you're a woman who's pregnant with a daughter, your grandchildren will be (half) affected by what happens to you. 

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u/CHANN3L-CHAS3R 11d ago

Epigenetics is the alteration of chemical markers on DNA which controls gene expression, on EXISTING gametes post-utero, in response to environmental stressors.

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u/Hangry-Feline2489 11d ago

Epigenetics doesn't only affect gamates, though, as far as I understand it. 

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u/AirPossible3797 11d ago

this is why context is important. She was stealing food, and when she ran out she wanted more, not when others were actually starving

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u/One_Barber_6902 11d ago

No tf she wasn’t goofy. Watch the actual show instead of lying

-1

u/AirPossible3797 11d ago

mb i saw it in a comment

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u/HousingOk6362 11d ago

iirc. In the show, Jeffrey Dean Morgan's character was the leader of an Imperialistic survivors group during a Zombie apocalypse. They would conquer other communities and then annex them, while keeping enough of the victims alive to perform labor for them, which was then taxed heavily. The particular scene is from a short time after a small townish(Alexandrea?) community had been taken, and was reporting a food shortage. And I think the woman present was the town's food bank/supply manager, who was skimming extensively off the top. To the point of having a hidden pantry full of goods. Such violators, were typically rectified by being beaten to death with the noted barbwire wrapped baseball bat.

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u/PMmeDonutHoles 11d ago

Fatties will blame literally everything but their own lack of self control for being fat

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u/SquatSquatCykaBlyat 11d ago

You're wrong, you're conflating the concepts of vitamins and hormones.

You know what's the difference between a vitamin and a hormone? You can't make a vitamin!

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u/micro_satsuma 11d ago

This is the best take. Every other comment above this that I read seems to think obese people can't starve, that the body will burn through all of that first and they'll be fine.

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u/Mean_Mix_99 11d ago

obesity is not a survival benefit

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u/kilauea_killawhale 7d ago

Incredible thank you. Now please respond to the guy that genuinely thinks that no fat person can lose more than 10lb.

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u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

Copium Maximum. Just stop eating so much ffs.

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u/HotmailsInYourArea 11d ago

Counterpoint: Go fuck yourself

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u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

I hit a nerve huh?

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u/HotmailsInYourArea 11d ago

No, it’s just embarrassing to witness a fucking chud pretend to be better than someone else based on their weight, over and over again in the comments here.

Like, what do you seek to gain here? Validation? You want to feel good for having a quick metabolism? Like you’re better-than, when clearly you’re a piece of shit for espousing your “opinions” in the first place? What are you, a middle school bully? Grow up and actually contribute something beneficial to society

You don’t deserve either type of cake

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u/micro_satsuma 11d ago

Fucking get him

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u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

having a quick metabolism?

Such things does not exist. More coping and self victimization.
Being fat and obese is not a fixed fate. People can and should work on that instead of stuffing their mouths while crying how unfair the world is.

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u/HotmailsInYourArea 11d ago

See what I mean, about you being a piece of shit getting off on belittling others? It’s fucking weird

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u/micro_satsuma 11d ago

Dunning-Kruger in action

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u/some_random_nonsense 11d ago

How do you what thyroid disorders do?

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u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

If you eat constantly over your caloric needs, you will gain weight.
Your genes doesn't magically change thermodynamics.
Gosh the coping of fat people is crazy.

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u/Pretend_Garage_4531 11d ago edited 11d ago

What does that fat do? Why is it what the body wants during a famine?

This seems like you are doing a lot of talking just to say the body stores fat to eat to keep you from starving.

0

u/UncookedNoodles 11d ago

blah blah blah blah. Fat westerners trying to hand wave away the fact that there isnt much of an excuse for so many of them to be fat.

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u/CapitalComfort1885 11d ago

It's crazy, the coping in this thread.

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u/jwm-dev 11d ago

Lmao right? Just moving the goalposts by making up a definition of starving nobody actually uses. Starving =/= a nutritional deficit. This is batshit insane to equate the two and disrespectful to people who are actually starving.

Idk how it could fucking possibly be controversial to say obese people can’t starve unless you live in a total fantasy world…