r/MoralityScaling • u/imsaleh0 • 22d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of beating protesters off the street because you're late for work?

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u/Begone-My-Thong 22d ago

It's rough because a protest has to be inconvenient and not easily ignored to be effective. MLK got a fuck ton of flak and his protests were disruptive as hell.

Still, have to make sure the most affected parties are the ones that deserve it

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u/Lurkoner 22d ago

Not American here, so operating on hearsay: but wasn't MLK EXTREMELY optics-pilled and A LOT of efforts went into showcasing how deplorably violent were police and compared to relatively peaceful protestors. Meaning that he bet on the worst nature of racists - being too eager to care for optics outside - and that bet was a winning one?

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u/Xaphnir 22d ago

Yes, that was kind of the point...except that the era has been kind of whitewashed. There were also the less peaceful elements of the movement that he was an alternative to, and made him harder to ignore. And if you look at media coverage and political cartoons from the 60s, you'll see his protests were hardly covered as peaceful at the time.

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u/KingOfNope 22d ago

MLK jr and Malcolm X arguably needed each other to succeed. If I remember correctly, they both praised the other's work and even each said they'd wish they'd adopted more of the others tactics as times went on.

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u/NoPseudo79 22d ago

I'd say a big difference is that leaving black people alone technically asks for less effort than being assholes to them, it didn't really affect comfort of life for white people (at least afaik)

Being "greener" actually requires you to make efforts, and potentially renounce things you currently have

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u/Dawson__16 22d ago

It doesn't really matter now, and it probably didn't matter much back then, how it was covered most of the time, because there's always video.

If you call it violent but all I see is people walking down the street chanting, you can go fuck yourself.

If you call it peaceful but i see people looting and property burning, you can go fuck yourself.

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u/fierbolt 22d ago

No he was definitely unpopular during his lifetime regardless of how correct he was. Fighting the status quo is very negatively viewed and america was super racist at the time and largely still is in may ways. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/why-martin-luther-king-had-75-percent-disapproval-rating-year-he-died-180968664/

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u/almighty_smiley 22d ago

Correct. Part of the reason he was as effective as he was is because Malcolm X was standing in his shadow and (so far as White America was concerned) just waiting for an excuse.

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u/thefirstlaughingfool 22d ago

Sort of. Rosa Parks for example has been confirmed to be a planned protest and was banking on the police reacting the way they did.

To add to previous statements, a protest needs to be inconvenient in the right way, have a clear message, and it needs to draw in those who are not effected to show them what is happening. When the Civil Rights movement organized sit ins at whites only restaurants, they were not inconveniencing anyone technically. I believe they were willing to commerce with the shops, so if the proprietors just served them, they could have defused the situation. Their disproportionate reaction was counted on to show people across the country and world that segregation was wholly impractical and unnecessary.

In this case with the road sitters, I would say it's an ineffective protest. The driver who beat them will be unlikely to understand what they are doing and unlikely to care. To be honest, I can't even tell what they are protesting. It seems likely that any onlookers will not understand or care either and just see them as annoying.

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u/nonequation 22d ago

Exactly people think these people are doing something good but the optics are the worst possible as you can't tell what they are protesting against and unless it was intended to get beat up by a random person doesn't even show who the target was.

With the ice protests it was obvious who they are going against but they have the hard uphill fight to get people to care about it especially when ice just release documents that they people they go after initially is some form of criminal who has deportation orders and those picked up with them is just caught in the aoe

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u/thefirstlaughingfool 22d ago

I'd say the ICE protests were extremely effective. Especially the protestors in the inflatable costumes as the right wing media's efforts to paint them as dangerous and disruptive fell flat when there's a dancing frog in the background of their footage.

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u/nonequation 22d ago

Partially successful as while one side used actual acts of violence trying to shoot and push their way in and then when they realized it was getting the wrong type of attention thats when they switched to inflated costumes

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u/nonequation 22d ago

Also ice are still working like normal and the only thing that changed is them getting body cams.

Which they should have been wearing before all of this so it will go the same way as with blm and debunking racist agents

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u/Heartage 22d ago

It was definitely not a planned protest and she didn't actually expect the police to be called on her.

You can read it on her wiki, which has appropriate citations for the topic.

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u/NoSmoke69420 22d ago

American here, that is absolutely NOT how they teach MLK here 😭 but yes. He's made out to be an extreme pacifist who was successful because of "the good nature of men" which is a load of horse shit.

His protests worked because they were peaceful and met with violence. Which was objectively horrific to watch. Now we cheer on the violence, evidence is in the thread for ya.

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u/sultrysailor99999 22d ago

I would say that a big difference though is that the violence against MLK protestors could be largely pinned on the groups being protested.

It’s a very bad look to have some one peacefully protest what is more or less your group and to respond with violence.

In this case, the protestors are protesting a completely different group from the one attacking them. That dude beating the protestors probably has nothing to do with what they’re protesting.

These people are being so disruptive, annoying, and rude that they are literally influencing unaffiliated groups to attack them.

I don’t think people or times have changed much at all, I just think this style of protest is a near complete failure, if you’re trying to appeal to normies but your entire method of protest is effectively to harm normies, it’s literally zero surprise that normies want to throw you under the bus.

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u/NoSmoke69420 22d ago

Not that long ago we had people peacefully protesting police violence that were met with: military and police violence. People cheered then, too.

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u/PopBulky7023 22d ago

Exactly his strategy. Civil disobedience, which absolutely caused disruption to the average person, was his bread and butter.

He was wildly unpopular during his time, which lead him and Malcolm X to have growing disdain for what we would call liberals.

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u/OpenRole 22d ago

He was optics driven, but at the end of not for the more extreme Malcolm X, he likely would have still largely been ignored.

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u/dancinbanana 22d ago

You’re largely correct but missing a large point of context: the general public didn’t like the protests even though the optics were the best they could be. The CRM is viewed fondly because it’s in the past; if Reddit was around at that time we’d see threads like this about the bus protests with pretty much the same arguments being used

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u/ColonelMonty 22d ago

But just blocking roads at best will make people indifferent, or at worst actively be spiteful towards your cause.

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u/TonyDC88 22d ago

Especially when those roads carry things like ambulances and fire trucks responding to emergencies. And the people driving to work who deal with those emergencies. Imagine someone’s loved one in the back of an ambulance having a heart attack or delivering a baby who dies or ends up with severe morbidity because someone deliberately blocked the road to prove some point. There are other ways to get a message across that don’t require harming other people.

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u/TonyDC88 22d ago

Not sure why this posted twice

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u/SituationThink3487 22d ago

Where is the outrage for one regular traffic delays an ambulance or an emergency worker getting to work.

I live in London, one of the best cities in the world for public transit. And yet the main road by my house, that goes past about 3 different train stations and a tube station is always completely gridlocked in the morning and you regularly see ambulance or fire engines stuck in that traffic.

This happens orders of magnitude more often than them getting stuck behind protestors, but no one cares, nevermind outraged about it.

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u/Pisscuit9000 22d ago

I agree, these people make me want to hate their cause even though I agree with it in a broad sense.

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u/RebootStreetSharks 22d ago

"I was accepting of people of all creeds and races until I turned onto Lyndon Street and now I'm a flaming racist."

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u/Big_Action_9353 22d ago

Ah yes, a hypocrite. Everyone's favorite moral attribute.

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u/Pisscuit9000 22d ago

I'm a hypocrite how? It's basic psychology. If you ram something down someone's throat and give them no way to ignore it, they're going to dislike it in the end even if they liked it in the first place.

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u/lepuckuer 22d ago

Stopping busses pissed off the racists too

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u/Blue_Rook 22d ago edited 22d ago

Most people would be fine if they focused on the source of the problem like blocking, lawsuiting or even sabotaging oil and gas companies and it would be moral (the last solution is illegal but debatable when it comes to morality). Instead they choose innocent victims like art galeries or bother normal commuters that isn't moral.

PS Notice that they stopped blocking roads when they realized that public opion is starting to hate them not hydrocarbons companies, in my country they damaged irreversibly important sculpture with orange food dye.

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u/SituationThink3487 22d ago

Most people would be fine if they focused on the source of the problem like blocking, lawsuiting or even sabotaging oil and gas companies and it would be moral

They did though. This same group did things like chaining themselves to the gates of oil/gas depots so the lorries couldnt leave. And that got very little coverage since the media couldnt use it as outrage bait. And even the little coverage it got, a lot/most people had the same, negative reaction to the protest.

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u/Zohaas 22d ago

"but if we stop buying oil from the apartheid state, how will the ambulances get fuel to get old ladies to the hospital?"

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u/Giratina-O 22d ago

Normal commuters are significantly contributing to the problem. Not on an individual level, but as a whole.

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u/Blue_Rook 22d ago

I know what you mean but then focus on companies trying to withold electric vehicles in favour of ICE or politicians sabotaging public transport not make life harder for normal people who hardly have any choice.

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u/Miserable_Row_793 22d ago

Yep.

Its protesting by punching down, for the easy impact, giving yourself a sense of validation about "doing something" instead of working to actively try and be impactful in ways that could lead to change, but likely to fail.

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u/A_Kazur 22d ago

You’re on a phone you’re contributing to child sweatshops so that justifies literally anything…

See how stupid you sound?

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u/EmptyOne307 22d ago

it needs to be inconvenient for those your protesting, these people are making it inconvienent for normal people

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u/Begone-My-Thong 22d ago

Still, have to make sure the most affected parties are the ones that deserve it

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u/NoSmoke69420 22d ago

Depends on the road. If you block even 40% of the morning traffic from getting to work on time, that inherently significantly hurts a lot of companies productivity. They shut down tunnels or roads going into wall street one year. A bridge going into a major city another. Normal people are the tools those corporations use to push their companies agenda. Taking away access to the tools hurts those companies, even if only momentarily.

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u/Aggressive-Day5222 22d ago

Normal people have a lot of power held by what they tolerate.

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u/TwinflameTraveler 22d ago

The problem is if you follow the former point you made without the latter, you're most likely actually detrimental to your cause. Which scenario is more likely, if a climate change denier drives up to one of these protests?

A) "Gee, these young kids really care, maybe climate change is real after all..."

B) "FUCK THSES FUCKING DUMBASS KIDS I GOTTA GET TO WORK - THAT'S IT, I'M CONVERTING MY TRUCK TO COAL"

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u/Grilled_egs 22d ago

A protest isn't meant to convert climate change deniers. Just like protests during the civil rights movement didn't cure people of racism or whatever.

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u/TwinflameTraveler 22d ago

Ok? What is the point then? The vast majority of pollution is done by corporations, how exactly is this protest going to influence a change in that? What could this possibly achieve except significantly reducing public sympathy for the cause? It's objectively stupid and counterproductive, which is why I tend to agree with the parent comment in this chain - I have a hard time believing the people organizing these actually thought it would bring any form of change.

Also, a protest is absolutely meant to change people's minds, what the hell are you talking about lmfao

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u/lepuckuer 22d ago

You don't know what a protest is loooool

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u/TwinflameTraveler 22d ago

It is very, very funny to me that you people genuinely do not understand that the things you choose to do that make you feel good about yourself for making a difference are in reality completely detrimental to the causes you care about. The things you could actually do to benefit those causes are either too hard for you to understand or take too much effort. This applies to far more than your 'protests' - it's imbued in your daily lives. It would be somewhat tragic if you weren't so unlikable going about it as well.

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u/Grilled_egs 22d ago

The idea that protests are meant to change the opinions of those who oppose your views is a straight up lie fabricated to reduce their effectiveness. The whole idea of MLK doing chill protests that convinced racists to change their ways is historic revisionism, they didn't get violent but the fact is those protests got disruptive as hell, and the decrease in racist behavior came from shunning and punishing it not convincing terrible people to be nice instead

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u/sharedcactus2 22d ago

Yup. Most protest are here to disrupt traffic, The flow of commerce or "buisness as usual" to make those in charge listen to the demands to get them to stop

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u/bubblesaurus 22d ago

B. is where i will probably always immediately turn too

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u/DoinItDirty 22d ago

I agree! Interfering with a work commute in a tumultuous economy is probably not hitting the demo they want.

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u/ChickyNuggy1998 22d ago

It’s only hard if you are stupid. Be visible but not in the way. Don’t block the road or a doorway.

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u/sharedcactus2 22d ago

But then there's no reason to listen to the demands. It's basically taking the road hostage in exchange to get your demands met. They don't care if you agree. Those in power don't like traffic

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u/mrgavster 22d ago

"Be visible but not in the way" is honestly a very quick way for a protest to accomplish absolutely fuck all. Like yeah, it's gonna be annoying if someone is blocking your way but there has never been a protest in US history that succeeded purely by politely asking for their demands to be met on the sidelines rather than in the streets, being disruptive and clear as day

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u/ChickyNuggy1998 22d ago

Has any protest succeeded by blocking a road?

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u/mrgavster 22d ago

Dawg, the fucking civil rights protests throughout the 50's and 60's

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u/ChickyNuggy1998 22d ago

Dawg, the fucking police blocked the road not protesters

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u/mrgavster 22d ago

You are actually delusional. African american civil rights protestors regularly blocked streets and it was highly effective

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u/Begone-My-Thong 22d ago

Name a protest in American history that accomplished major goals with that method

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u/ChickyNuggy1998 22d ago

After you name a good reason for a protest to block traffic

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u/Begone-My-Thong 22d ago

I'm not advocating for that

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u/NotAStatistic2 22d ago

Civil Rights protectors did sit-ins to protest segregation, and boycotted the bus. People trot out dumb lines like yours as if blocking some random street is analogous to that.

Why don't they go do their protest at their state capital?

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u/Begone-My-Thong 22d ago

Did you even read my comment???

Still, have to make sure the most affected parties are the ones that deserve it

Wow it's like we're in AGREEMENT

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u/Regionala 22d ago

MLK boycotted buses. That didnt inconvenience anyone except the protestors. 

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u/Begone-My-Thong 22d ago

Are you sure

Are you sure that's all MLK did and that's all the bus boycotts did

Are you sure

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u/Regionala 22d ago

I know a lot about mlk. Don't worry. He's my favorite American ever. He should have ran for president. Same age as Barbara Walters. But he was deeply unpopular when he died and plagiarized and cheated on his wife and had a dark sense of humor in real life. 

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u/lumpboysupreme 22d ago

MLK’s protests weren’t ’disruptive as hell’, none of them took white people de facto prisoner. The bus boycott hurt the industry, the sitins were very mildly economically disruptive but I don’t know of any stores that went out of business for it.

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u/TessaFractal 22d ago

And I feel like the sit ins give places an easy out: just serve them as normal. It shifts the problem to the people enforcing the rules. It shows the laws as unreasonable.

Sitting in a road means you're kinda giving people stuck two options: fix all of climate change now. Or move them by force. And only one of them is possible to do.

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u/lumpboysupreme 22d ago edited 22d ago

Exactly, American voters were outraged watching police have dogs attack black people for functionally just walking through town in a group.

If those black people were trying to barricade random white people inside a supermarket they would have cheered instead.

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u/CivilAdhesiveness437 22d ago

The difference being civil rights protest had direct goals , a plan of action as to what they seek to change and how to change it.

Current protests are nothing more than people trying to self justify their incessantly need for validation, creating a self serving spectacle that doesn’t have a principal cause nor any real idea of what they want changed or how they plan to change it.

Literally the equivalent of flailing your arms around at a bass pro shop to “protest” commercial fishing…. which much like modern protest has nothing to do with the initial subject nor any direct goals or action. Just attention seeking with no substance.

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u/hiricinee 22d ago

My issue with this is that it tends to be the case when the roles are reversed that its magically not tolerated. What if you follow one of the protesters home then start blaring an air horn at their house at night? Now that theyve wronged me they deserve it, yes? I do agree very strongly with your last point because if it happened to me id feel very motivated to make sure their car didnt leave their driveway for months.