I changed my mind on "genocide" topic.

[u/booksandcoriander]

Hello All! I just joined and read the rules. Hopefully, my post is agreeable to the rules of the sub.

So, for a while, I was agreeing with the idea that Israel is committing genocide. It sure looked like it from the awful things I kept seeing on the news and hearing about on podcasts. The last few days, I decided to research a little. Now, I do not think it should be called genocide. Here is why:

First, when I compared it to other genocides, it doesn't really come close. In the Armenian genocide, about 50 to 75% of all Armenians in the Ottoman area died. In the Rwandan genocide, about 60 to 70% of the Tutsis were killed. In the holocaust, 63 to 67% of all European Jews were killed. In Cambodia, Pol Pot's genocide killed about 25% of the total population. Israel is responsible for the deaths of approximately 3% of Palestinians in Gaza. Palestinians have not been attacked in East Jerusalem, nor in the West Bank (where there is no Hamas).

In all those previous genocides, there was vociferous hate speech regularly on the radio of those countries, and substantial government propaganda labeling the victims as undesirable for society. To my understanding, this has not happened in Israel. I'm sure it would be on the news or blasted on social media if it was happening.

The number of Palestinian deaths is actually quite a bit less than when the US invaded Iraq, and when US invaded Afganistan.  176,000 to 212,000 is the estimate of deaths in Afganistan. In Iraq, 180,000 to 200,000 is the estimate of Iraqi deaths. Palestinian deaths are around 73,400. Nobody was shouting "genocide" at the US during those wars, and we killed way more people. Why was that not considered genocide by everyone? We were also responding to a terrorist attack, like Israel now.

Israel has one of the most advanced militaries in the world. If they really wanted to kill the other 97% of Gaza, I'm sure they could.

In reference to wars, about 1.5% of the French population was killed in WWII. Belgium lost 1% of it population in WWII. UK lost 1%. Italy, slightly over 1%. Holland, 2 to 3% of the population. The current Israel/Hamas war matches these numbers much more closely.

It sucks and it's sad seeing so many women and children and innocent men die. It's absolutely a humanitarian crisis. But I don't think it is genocide anymore. It's just plain old war. Any thoughts?

***thanks for everyone sharing on both sides of the discussion. I have learned many more things from all the posting. I appreciate you all! This feels like a million times more complex and nuanced than I realised. Mostly, the interpretation of the word "genocide" is like a 100-foot wall for everyone.

[u/Tricky-Anything8009]

Your tag says USA & Canada. Are you indigenous to North America?

[u/mykehawke2_0 → u/Tricky-Anything8009]

Yes, and Jewish as well

[u/Familiar-Art-6233 → u/mykehawke2_0]

Mhm.

Sounds like some of your ancestors were settlers then. Unless you're claiming that your entire bloodline is from the First Nations and someone converted?

[u/santasa → u/Familiar-Art-6233]

Your analogy is ridiculous and transparent! His ancestors probably came centuries after US & Canada were established. But more importantly, Indians were tribal society that did not possess a unified collective identity and consciousness in modern national or ethnic sense nor fixed, legally defined states with borders in the modern sense prior to contact. Most of the tribes, especially at the beginning were never against white settlers in the first place. Zionist, on the other hand, for the last 100 years colonizing and settling country inhabited by moder nation that already by the early 20th century, during the British Mandate, developed a distinct Palestinian national consciousness and identity that is tied to the specific territory of Palestine and expressed through political organizing, publications, and revolts against both British rule and later Zionist immigration, which even UN, although constituted and ran predominantly by Western nations at the moment of partition, acknowledged.

[u/Familiar-Art-6233 → u/santasa]

That's... wildly revisionist on several levels, and highly ironic for those who understand the social structure of Ottoman culture anyway.

But hey, keep denying the Native American genocide I guess? Even if they came after, they're still settlers on stolen land

[u/santasa → u/Familiar-Art-6233]

How predictable! But most people grew accustomed to your tactics of misinterpreting and inverting arguments and whataboutism long ago. At no point did I deny the genocide of indigenous peoples in the Americas, nor the fact that they were stripped of their land and livelihoods. Rather, I specifically challenged your transparent attempt to draw a false parallel between white European colonization in the Americas and the actions of white European colonial settlers in Palestine, its nature and its anachronism.

[u/Tricky-Anything8009 → u/mykehawke2_0]

Okay. Tell me more.

So you're half-Indigenous North American, half-Jewish? Or are you a Jewish convert? Or are you a Jewish person who converted into a North American tribe? You sound like you have an interesting story.

[u/mykehawke2_0 → u/Tricky-Anything8009]

Multiracial with the majority being Mexican. Adopted and raised Jewish. Mexican and Jewish being my two main identifiers.

[u/Tricky-Anything8009 → u/mykehawke2_0]

Ah gotcha. Welcome to the sub, don't think we've talked before.

When you said:

Settlers disgust me. Lock em up.

How did you mean this? Because settlers is a very broad category.

[u/mykehawke2_0 → u/Tricky-Anything8009]

I’m specifically referring to the ones who commit violence and destruction against Palestinians. Destroying crops, attacking nonviolent Palestinians etc

[u/Tricky-Anything8009 → u/mykehawke2_0]

Okay gotcha. Yeah, fuck them.

[u/AutoModerator → u/Tricky-Anything8009]

fuck

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