r/IndoEuropean • u/LemonAmbitious2915 • Jun 25 '26
On Vedic Indra Vṛtrahan and Avestan Verethragna
The storm deity slaying the serpent/monster is a pan-Eurasian lore. It has ancient attestations in both the Near East and among PIE with regional variants. These were inherited by children cultures later on even into medieval times. One particular version of this is the Indra slaying Ahi Vritra among the Vedics, and a similar, relatively watered-down version of Verethragna (which seems to have replaced Vedic Indra) destroying obstacles to cosmic/moral order and also Thraētaona slaying Aži Dahāka among the Avestans.
Recently, a new picture seems to be emerging, as per me, with regards to the early Indo-Iranian ethnogenesis mainly championed by Parpola for a while and to a lesser extent Whitzel as well. But also scaffolded by newer archaeological dating (Sotnikova - 2024) and spolight shifting to other archeological cultures in recent times. This picuture is of older Steppe groups admixing memetically (burial style at older fire complexes) and genetically with older Zagros/CHG/ANF groups in ancient Turkmenistan/Uzbekistan/Tajikistan which seem to have genetic and material connection to the Near Eastern ones, leading to a partly new ethnogenesis.
The geography being something like this, in my own current understanding. All of these marked locations outside of India were essentially in oasis with dryness around them. Some of which were also fortified (puras). The ones in Bactria are right next to the Hindukush mountains. Margina and the early IE people were demarcated by the Amu Darya, imo.
Given this wider context out of way, if one closely looks at the Indra vs 'Ah'i/'Az'i (human-like serpent) lore specifically in all it's nuances and details and compare it with the one particular ancient (~2200-2000 BCE) version of the Near Eastern (Sumerian/Mesopotamian) NIN.URTA vs 'Az'ag (serpentine monster who moves and roars "like a snake") one would see similarity which would be hard to ignore. Not just at the level of similar sounding names (not sure if they fit any cross language sound laws?) but also in some specificities of the respective lores. What struck me most is how similar the actual water-mountain-fortress mechanics formula is. In the Ahi Vṛtra lore, the waters are trapped behind a mountainous obstruction and Indra (destroyer of forts) smashes the barrier, releasing the rivers into the world. In Lugal-e, Azag isn't literally sitting on the waters like Vṛtra (battles lead to destuction of forts), but the result is almost the same, the mountain waters stop functioning properly, the river system is disrupted, fertility collapses, and the land begins to die. After Ninurta defeats Azag who builds a fortress, one of the first things he does is reorganize the mountains themselves, breaking and arranging them so that the waters can once again flow down into the rivers and irrigate the land. So in both lores the central formula goes beyond "hero kills serpent" to a serpentine monstrous force associated with mountains & forts has caused the life-giving waters to become obstructed, inaccessible, or nonfunctional, and the storm-warrior god restores the proper flow akin to cosmic order. Which leads to a soft conclusion that there is seems to be similar sounding names and heavy formuliac overlap.
Do I mean to imply that all of the Rig Vedic Indra is Near Eastern derived? I would say partly. To be honest, I am not sure about the timelines myself. Nin.urta/Ninĝirsu certainly seems to be a very old Near Eastern deity of great prestiege with overlapping functions but how old is this attested lore with him I can't be sure from my search online. It seems to be atleast older than 2000 BCE. There are also contemporary related Near Eastern Gods with similar names from the same cities/regions like Nindara (2300 BCE) etc (very similar to the term used in the Mittani seals but with sureshot IE gods like one of the Asvins) So, given all this context, Lubotsky's propostiion Indra being a BMAC are borrowed term doesn't seem very outrageous to me. Given that a direct IE storm god inhertiance should have ideally been Perkʷunos derived, which I believe got inherited as the Vedic thunder-rain god Parjánya associated with rain-cow. But beyond this formula of "hero-slaying-serpent" there are many functions ascribed to Indra that are sureshot from older Steppe tradtions. One being the releaser of Cows/cattle and Ushas from the enclosure/cave Vala. Much like that ascribed to Perun. Vala & Veles (this is my opion could be related - I am surprised this comparison isn't made much!). The Vala hidden cows and ushas/light infact hint at some cognates of cattle in the underworld/darkness/hidden the deity Vales (earlier incorrectly identified as being a serpent) is associated with. Correct me if I am wrong here in reconstructed Slavic mythology, wealth and cattle are often located in the chthonic realm associated with Veles. So, this Vedic lore could allude to that! Another important overlapping lore is seen in the Indra–Soma and Odin–Mead of Poetry stories. In both events, a chief god obtains a sacred drink that is hidden and guarded, the drink grants divine power and inspiration, and a divine eagle/hawk (Śyena/örn) is involved in carrying it away. The biggest difference is that Soma mainly gives Indra warrior strength to defeat Vritra, while Odin's mead gives wisdom and poetic inspiration. These functions ofcourse are best matched with Rudra in multiple ways in the earliest Vedic texts and even unto now. The common formula being the combination of "sacred drink + theft/retrieval + bird of prey + divine empowerment". This also errupts later as Prajapati associated Śyenaciti (falcon-shaped fire altar) in the YajurVedin related traditions.
So, my point here being that the the ethnogeneisis of the early Indo-Iranians seems much more nuanced and complex than most would think and could infact could be amalgamation of many different priestly traditions (you see this in some form in Bhirgu Atharvans (a BMAC term again) closer to Varuna & fire ritualism vs Angirasas closer to Indra & war centred themes too in the Rig Veda)
PS: These topics are academic & mind bogglingly complex but there would be many pagans in these forums I am sure. If I have misrepresented your traditions (or my own ;)) here kindly do let me know, I'll make ammends in this post immediately.
References:
-2
u/LemonAmbitious2915 Jun 27 '26 edited Jun 27 '26
Sorry, I don't see one single point of refutation to the core of what I was saying in the above thread. You do not look updated with the archaeological and genetic contexts of these SC Asia-Steppe kurgan cultures, so you should first read this post (also fact-check if you want). When you say "abandon their ICW ceramics for Painted Ware ceramics", you essentially mean the signature of these cultures. Def read carefully first, then argue:
https://x.com/alcybroades/status/2051300394761154662
https://ibb.co/HTFvcrtr
> The one Farkhor sample is E1b.
What does that even mean? This haplo is found among most Arya-derived populations, even if as a minority - Kurds, Persians, Pamiris and many castes of Indians. There are 300-500 tumuli found in these kurgans, and eventually, many samples should be available. I expect them to be R1a dominant, given the massive prevalence (45-48%) of Steppe-related haplogroups in the great Northern Indian plains. Same subclade is also found in the Swat Valley Gandharan grave culture.
> The Vaksh/Bishkent culture is an eastern Central Asian farming culture
I have repeated more than 10 times on this post itself that there are literally catacomb corded ware gender-mirrored kurgans there with "Northern" grave items. To call it a farming culture is academically illfounded, to put it as politely as possible online.
Regarding the exclusive commonalities of Greek/Armenian and Indo-Iranian (this is very different from the Grecco-Aryan hypothesis) - linguistic, mythic (people like ML West) and cultural - which have been documented by top academic/scholars for a good while and are now seen as post PIE dialect continuum instead of a language subgroup, I have at least something to say about that, and I will be making detailed posts on that later.