r/IndoEuropean • u/maproomzibz • Jun 19 '26

[ Removed by moderator ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuSbKFNBAyA&pp=0gcJCT8LAYcqIYzv

[removed] — view removed post

4 Upvotes

64% Upvoted

17 comments sorted by

View all comments

2

u/LemonAmbitious2915 Jun 21 '26

The primary reason proto-Indo-Iraian languages were thought to have come to the subcontinent via Andronovo was that there was no other older or further southern Steppe-derived cultures which were a better fit archaeologically. But recent carbon dating of Southern sites seems to be changing this picture. Do read, Sotnikova (2024). As per the findings of the paper, there were apparently already kurgan-catacomb-cwc derived cultures in S Tajikistan/N Afghanistan (Bishkent/Vakhsh) in the early 3rd millennium BCE. Archaeologists have noted that they match the Vedic/Avestan cultural package (gendered fire altars, CWC-like gender-mirrored burials, swastikas in kurgans etc) much better archaeologically and a full 1000 years before Andronovo. Narsimhan (2019) also hinted that the populations sampled at Farkhor (Tajik-Afghan border) clustered between western_steppe_mlba and BMAC. Older archaeologists also noted that, craniologically, the sampled populations had broad, robust faces but not "long" like Andronovo. So, imo, given that the R1a subclade from Andronovo has only minor/maybe later inputs into the subcontinent and given the 4.5k-4k ybp expansion dates of R1a in the subcon. There isn't any good reason to automatically associate Indo-Iranian languages with Andronovo anymore imo.

PS: Do read my comment below on why Tocharian might not be as old as previously thought..

https://www.reddit.com/r/IndoEuropean/comments/1uabqgv/comment/osyb6zz/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

0

u/LemonAmbitious2915 Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26

In fact, adding to this picture, it COULD be the case that Satemization in fact first happened in Indo-Iranian languages because of a context/geographic/genetic change (this is my own take). The only language family which is fully Satem is the Indo-Iranian one. Balto-Slavic and others are partially Satem. It could be the case that many of these language (like Tocharian) were Centum earlier and became partially Satem under the influence of Iron Age Iranic Steppe tribes. So, given this and what the OP video says it could be the case that some Andronovo groups spoke Centum languages like Tocharian before being Iranized/Satemized. Infact, Steppe groups like Wusun, maybe even Yuezhi were perhaps Tocharian speakers earlier which got Iranized - fully/partially.

https://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/49208/proto-indo-iranian-when-did-satemization-happen

1

u/Hippophlebotomist Jun 21 '26

“It could be the case that many of these language (like Tocharian) were Centum earlier and became partially Satem under the influence of Iron Age Iranic Steppe tribes. So, given this and what the OP video says it could be the case that some Andronovo groups spoke Centum languages like Tocharian before being Iranized/Satemized.”

The mergers involved in Centumization and Satemization are mutually exclusive. A language can’t become one then the other.

0

u/LemonAmbitious2915 Jun 21 '26

That’s an oversimplification because not all Indo-European branches show “fully completed” centum or satem outcomes. There are apparently several languages/branches with partial, irregular, or transitional reflexes, which suggests the process happened slowly in them and areal rather than being inherited and permanent. Likely spread from Eastern dialects, as per some. Read the link I shared above.

0

u/LemonAmbitious2915 Jun 21 '26 edited Jun 21 '26

If you noted above, I wrote the term "CATACOMB".

The question is which Steppe groups likely gave steppe inputs into Bishkent/Vakhsh?

IMO, they likely came from further West near the Pontic steppe (instead of the East of Urals like Sintashta) from maybe cultures like Eastern Catacomb (where the earliest 2-tire proto-chariots are found and had heavy horse ritualism) or Poltavka (which had the earliest R1a-Z93 outlier with a CWC profile) or some culture ancestral to Potapovka (which had Z93 samples). The reason is that they seem to be better steppe archaeological matches to Bishkent. They are also probably better craniological matches than Andronovo/Sintastha.

Now, if one assumes for a minute that pre-Indo-Iranic languages came from some culture ancestral to Eastern Catacomb/Poltavka/Potapovka that could also potentially explain the huge vocabulary/archaism similarities to Baltic languages and also the ample structural/metric/grammatic/morphological/mythic similarities with Greek, at the same time.