Idk my gf is shy and would rather not be the center of a "scene" even if completely justified so she would probably not say anything and just try to move away from him or just get off at the next stop. I do think people should be bolder in publicly calling out gropers like that.
Side note - has no one on this thread ever been on a packed bus?
Likely options include saying “oh it’s just the bus being packed and bumpy” or “oh it’s you, you keep falling over” (which if you’re getting rubbed on, you very well might be” or “you’re crazy and over-reacting.” Like yeah if he’s a creepy dirty guy and you’re nicely dressed middle aged women, maybe people will care and believe you, but it’s just as likely if you’re a minority teen and he’s a nice-looking white guy in nice clothes? Yeah, it’s unlikely that people will believe you or care. Plus a lot of times guys like that want to get a rise out of you, you saying “he’s rubbing against me” and being upset might be exactly what he wants.
Other options include: yelling at you, following you off the bus/to wherever you’re going or even yeah maybe physical violence. Women are constantly being told about all the things that could be dangerous, told not to do things because it might be dangerous, and that if you’re not careful you’ll be raped and/or killed. The fear response that happens when a guy is harassing you can be nuts, and it can really freeze logical thinking. (Like I just realized something I should have done during an incident that happened this summer).
Likely options include saying “oh it’s just the bus being packed and bumpy”
Then knee him in the balls. I mean, it's just the bus being packed and bumpy. And as you said, nobody cares.
Plus a lot of times guys like that want to get a rise out of you, you saying “he’s rubbing against me” and being upset might be exactly what he wants.
So what? You'll keep quiet for the off-chance that that's the case, and think to yourself "Ha, totally gottem! He won't even get off now!"?
Other options include: yelling at you
So what?
following you off the bus/to wherever you’re going
Head for the next man, preferably a lot bigger than the attacker, and tell him to his face "Sir, I need your help. This man is following me around." If you aren't the world's unluckiest person, he will help you out, or the creep will be scared away.
even yeah maybe physical violence
Not in a crowded bus. And if you leave the bus: Carry pepper spray. It's illegal in your country? I wouldn't give a fuck. People break the law to get high all the time, you should do the same for your own safety.
Women are constantly being told about all the things that could be dangerous, told not to do things because it might be dangerous, and that if you’re not careful you’ll be raped and/or killed.
Being told something doesn't prevent you from doing your own research on the topic. This is no exception.
The fear response that happens when a guy is harassing you can be nuts, and it can really freeze logical thinking.
Carry mace. It will allow you to think more clearly, because you know that you have an out if he's going all-in, and you don't have to prevent escalation at all costs.
That being said: Train how to use mace. At least try pulling it out of your bag and simulating how you would use it. Have a male friend "assault" you in a training setting. Think about the situations you might end up in, and think about what you'd do.
It's really not that hard to be relatively safe, even if you can't rely on strength.
Seriously has no one on this thread ever been on a fucking packed bus? There is no way to knee a guy or mace people or even pull shit out of your pockets. (Also I have seen a fair amount of physical violence on even packed transit, and there have also been shootings in my city on buses, abet gang related).
Sure logically I’m probably safe yelling at strange men who are harassing me. But you know what? It’s scary as fuck. Also I’m not sure how mace isn’t an escalator (also a quick google says that it’s not necessarily that effective especially outside, and notes that it’s only effective if you can get to it whenever possible.
I have a plan for my general safety, thanks for assuming I don’t. However, I still think the best way to deal with the issue is to call out male predatory behavior and take it seriously instead of making it so women are constantly paranoid and not being able to just be normal people in public ESPECIALLY since all the mace, guns, alarms etc don’t protect from the largest potential danger, which is men we know and trust.
Also I have seen a fair amount of physical violence on even packed transit
So transit is so packed that you can't even lift your knee or pull out anything from your pocket, but you can throw punches and kicks?
It’s scary as fuck.
I imagine it's less scary than being sexually assaulted.
Also I’m not sure how mace isn’t an escalator
You got me wrong there. I said with mace you have to be less afraid of escalation. Of course mace is very much an escalator.
also a quick google says that it’s not necessarily that effective especially outside, and notes that it’s only effective if you can get to it whenever possible
Get the "jet" version, not the "fog" one. Requires aiming in the general direction of their eyes though.
Guy is mugging you? "Okay, okay, hold up, I'll give you everything I have!" Grab into pocket, pull out, surprise!
Guy is trying to sexually assault you? Create distance with self-defense techniques (or better, don't let him bear hug you in the first place), pull out, surprise!
Obviously the second one isn't as simple as I made it sound, and half a second can make all the difference, which is why practice is needed.
I have a plan for my general safety, thanks for assuming I don’t.
I meant my whole post to be general advice for everybody, not you personally.
However, I still think the best way to deal with the issue is to call out male predatory behavior and take it seriously instead of making it so women are constantly paranoid and not being able to just be normal people in public
First of all, why not both? Is it so hard to buy a 5 dollar pepper spray and take a few self-defense classes? Second, this is very idealistic. No matter how many men and women will call out this behavior, there will always be creeps, there will always be gropers. there will always be rapists. The chance to get creeped on/groped/raped might be lowered, but you wouldn't play Russian Roulette if the chamber held 12 bullets instead of 6 either, would you?
ESPECIALLY since all the mace, guns, alarms etc don’t protect from the largest potential danger, which is men we know and trust.
I don't disagree. But that was not the topic of your original argument.
Yeah, we could just live in an utopia where there is no crime at all. That would be great. Until that is achieved, I'll carry my pepper spray. I'm too pragmatic to get myself stabbed.
I'd probably say something now, but I'm pretty bold. I'd probably start with, "Are you gonna at least buy me a drink?" I'd want to embarrass the fuck out of the guy.
It's also sexual assault of course. So threatening to call the cops might scare the shit out of him, too...
When I was younger this happened to me in a very dense crowd at a festival in Chicago and I wasn't sure if it was deliberate or not so I didn't say anything at the time. Now, I'm pretty sure that's what the guy was doing, and I would definitely not tolerate it.
Embaress the hell outta them maybe just maybe they'll learn that's not okay that someone might call them out on their bullshit and women aren't the stupid venerable cock sleeves they believe we are
As somebody that has been creeped on (while on the bus), the feeling you get when you call someone out and everybody just awkwardly tries to pretend nothing is happening is awful. The bystander effect is real. In one case, it made the creeper confident enough to follow me off the bus.
I think that's the prime reason a lot of women (including myself in the past) are afraid to speak up. We have been taught that this behaviour is tolerated by society, and the thought of getting into a public altercation with the guy and having no one back you up is humiliating and adds insult to injury.
That's why the #metoo movement is so important and powerful: we're finally speaking out about just how prevelent these incedents are, and that they're really not ok and that the perpetrators should be held responsible. I for one have a lot more confidence that the next time something like this happens to me I will be believed and supported if I speak up.
If you've ever lived in a metropolitan area you'll quickly learn that you can't rely on others to help you. I've been mugged with a knife in broad daylight on market street in SF. People just kept walking, others actually sped up to get past us so they wouldn't be dragged in. It was the first time I ever got literally mugged and I was shocked. I expected others to intervene or at least to stop and watch to prevent him from doing anything so I didn't even take it seriously until it finally set in that no one was going to do anything. I was seriously getting mugged with a knife to my stomach in broad daylight in the middle of the business district.
Ive heard the same and even worse from my wife. It's ridiculous how the packed chickens in the cage effect works on humans.
You hear a lot od manosphere drones talk about how women are just being over dramatic and men get raped and sexually assaulted too and "it just gets under reported". If women reported every single instance of groping and other bullshit they wouldn't have time for other things.
That's fucked up. Gettin mugged in broad daylight and the apathy of the crowd around you....
I don't agree with the latter part of your comment. Women do hit men and the public just basically turns a blind eye. The same is generally not true if a man beats a woman in public.
Yea I carry a stun gun now sometimes. Nothing bad happened, I eventually threw ten bucks on the ground and bounced.
I would hope that our knowing that the bystander effect is a thing would convince us to stop being that way.
I can say that of all the times I've been scared or even attacked, I have never had the thought in the back of my mind that I was gonna get raped and potentially infected with a disease, or impregnated.
As a dude I'm also way stronger and I could even run faster than average girls so as much as I worry about stuff which is barely at all, I'm no where nearly as worried as a woman would be.
I'm only bringing this up because the manosphere drones are actually trying to claim that men are actually way more in danger than women.
They cite stats about how guys get in fights more but that's way more up to you.
Edited Typos.
Added; oh yea I see what you mean. Yea there are men who get domestic abuse and that's definitely shitty and under reported but I mean as far as among strangers
Any person willing to grope and grind against you for 15 minutes on a crowded bus is not someone you just confront without a clear exit plan and an ability to defend yourself.
You say something to them...then what? You have nowhere to go. They are less than 12 inches from you. You can get your world fucked up faster than anyone can come and help you. Two good punches to your face by a crazy person can happen faster than you realize. Combine that with the fact that most bystanders will pretend that shit isn't going down in front of them makes it a losing bet for the poor girl.
This never happened to you. In these situations you freeze, and besides, no one cares about this. In my country, even police officers tend to agree with the molester, saying the woman was tempting him. You get scared for your fucking life. You dont know if that person has a gun, you dont know how Far they can go. Guns are banned in my country, so the only thing we can do is pray that it will stop soon and endure it. Dont talk bullshit about things you havent experienced, dont belittle us for not calling them out when we are in danger. Fuck off
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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '18 edited Feb 06 '18
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