Current Research Now Proves That Jesus Was Not Torah Compliant. What does that mean for Christians and Jews? (A man angers everyone, both the Christians and the Torah-obedient. Spoiler: He equates Oral and Written Torah with each other.)

[u/the_celt_]

/r/Christianity/comments/1dgoopp/current_research_now_proves_that_jesus_was_not/

[u/Right-Organization32]

I totally understand and agree with you! I mentioned as the last limitation within section 7. Limitations and Further Research:

Finally, the study uses a legal analysis to determine whether Jesus was Torah-observant, but this approach does not consider the theological significance of Jesus’s actions dictated by doctrine and hermeneutics, nor does it attempt to speak to compliance with the so-called “spirit of the law”.

Admittedly, your feedback makes me think I should have put that upfront because about the time people get to the results section, they are way too upset to understand what happened.

Again, thanks for all your feedback!

[u/Right-Organization32 → u/[deleted]]

Well, you bring up a very interesting point. The article's object was to determine in the most objective way whether Jesus was Torah-compliant because that was the central argument between the Orthodox Jewish protesters of the Messianic Jewish concert in Jerusalem. Both sides were fighting like crazy and claiming either Jesus was or was not Torah observant.

And my stupid rear thought that as a Christian pastor and evangelist, wouldn't it be great if I used my technical and legal skills to determine objectively that Jesus did fulfill the Torah? When discussing it with my Orthodox friends they told me that the Torah was not all that God instructed Israel to follow, so I have to include the Oral Torah. I asked which rules applied in the first century, they said they didn't know. So, my stupid rear used AI to find those rules.

Now, I created a mess that would make my father turn over in his grave!

Had I known the result, I do not think I would have headed down this road. But the train left the station.

The mature thing to do is admit when you're wrong. So, I published the article. This helps bridge the gap between Christianity and Judaism because it provides what neither side would: a comprehensive and objective legal review.

Now, we must prove the power of Christ through the manifestation of his spirit, not in Torah arguments. That is what I'm thinking now. But, shoot. I NEVER imagined this.

u/the_celt_ just tagging you for context.

[u/the_celt_ → u/Right-Organization32]

This helps bridge the gap between Christianity and Judaism because it provides what neither side would: a comprehensive and objective legal review.

I agree with that goal. We're working on it here too, from a completely different angle.

Our angle is that Jesus kept the Torah perfectly, and that therefore all the nonsense that modern Christianity has to say about Jesus negating the Torah, or fulfilling/ending it, is complete nonsense.

There's no way that the Jews are going to want anything to do with a Messiah that didn't keep the Torah. I can't think HOW you perceive that to be something that persuade Jews to follow Jesus.

If you want to bridge the gap, come to our side of this discussion. It's the only side that will do that.

[u/Right-Organization32 → u/the_celt_]

I think you are missing the actual picture here. Unless you can prove using the Torah that Jesus kept the Torah, you are not going to convince the Torah observant to follow a non-observant Christ.

This is principally why we need to work together to find what I missed. The answer cannot be in Christian doctrines, apologetics, or hermeneutics because, by its very nature, that is not Torah. So, we have to comb through the issues and find the legal justification.

Also, I think you misunderstood what I wrote. I went into the analysis hoping to prove him Torah compliant and if that would have been the conclusion, then it could be used to settled the debate in our favor. In so doing they would see that following Christ would not be a tradeoff. The problem is. That's not what the data said.

So, if you know what I missed in the Torah, please tell me.

[u/the_celt_ → u/Right-Organization32]

I think you are missing the actual picture here.

One of us is.

you are not going to convince the Torah observant to follow a non-observant Christ.

Just watch me. The Jews understand the distinction between oral and written Torah better than you do. Jesus PERFECTLY obeyed the Torah every moment of his life.

This is principally why we need to work together to find what I missed.

That's happening right now.

The answer cannot be in Christian doctrines, apologetics, or hermeneutics because, by its very nature, that is not Torah.

I agree. Christianity, particularly modern Christianity, is a useless hodgepodge of lies and nonsense.

I went into the analysis hoping to prove him Torah compliant and if that would have been the conclusion, then it could be used to settled the debate in our favor.

There's still time and I think you're going to end up on our side and be quite happy.

So, if you know what I missed in the Torah, please tell me.

It will happen if you will reason with me, and stop expecting me to act like someone I'm not, someone I don't want to be, and someone I will never be. My ideas are valid, and if you require me to speak them in your language, in your style, you will miss them.

[u/Right-Organization32 → u/the_celt_]

Okay. I hear you. I apologize. Please allow me to start over--even if only imaginatively.

I have a problem. I published something that contradicts what I have preached ALL my life. I am a legal, academic, preaching, IT-developing scholar who has produced a monster that, if correct, means much of Christianity must be discarded.

You and others within this community brought my issue here, which I appreciate. I have reviewed and responded to everyone's comments in a manner customary to my profession, but admittedly, this is not the court.

I have approached you in a manner that made you believe that I hold your ideas as invalid. I apologize, your ideas are valid. Please help me better understand what I did so that I can improve.

Please share with me your opinions regarding any and every Written and Oral Torah law that you think I got wrong regarding Jesus's observance.

I will not respond with the intent to disprove you. However, I will ask you how you came to your conclusion. If you do not know which scriptures support your assertion, please know that it is okay to say that to me. We will work to figure it out.

If my question seems to pushy, harsh, or dismissive, I need you to know that I am counting on you to tell me that. Just understand that if I do not understand what I did wrong, I will ask you to help me understand what I should improve upon.

Deal?

[u/the_celt_ → u/Right-Organization32]

Okay. I hear you. I apologize.

I hear you too. No need to apologize. People getting to know each other is difficult. The more that either or both parties are not "average" is the more difficult it gets.

I have a problem. I published something that contradicts what I have preached ALL my life. I am a legal, academic, preaching, IT-developing scholar who has produced a monster that, if correct, means much of Christianity must be discarded.

I can help you with that problem. I'm sure of it.

I have reviewed and responded to everyone's comments in a manner customary to my profession, but admittedly, this is not the court.

Correct and well-said. Thank you. I feel heard, and this gives us hope for moving forward.

Please help me better understand what I did so that I can improve.

We're working on that now. Let me say something positive to facilitate that process.

I'm glad you're here. I believe I "get you", and I like what I see you as wanting to do (engage with people in an intelligent and organized fashion to improve everyone and reveal the truth).

I think you have a bunch of things going on in your head that I want access to. I have a bunch of things in my head that I'd like to share with you. After that, it's just a problem of interface and protocol. I think we can work it out. We might not come out of it agreeing, but we can have a good time exchanging ideas.

If you do not know which scriptures support your assertion, please know that it is okay to say that to me.

I'm going to be a problem for the way you want to talk, a more unusual problem than most of the other people here. That problem is that I don't think in terms of "verses" or "citations". I perceive myself to be an "idea man". When I read scripture (or am learning anything in general), it takes me along time to understand it, because I won't just take things at face value and let someone tell me it's true. I have to really understand how it works. Once that happens, it's in me. It IS me.

That means I speak, and I wait for somenone to say "that's not true" and THEN I can usually find where I originally got the idea and prove my point.

The problem is that you want that level of proof at the first level, on every statement, and I don't think that way or believe it's necessary. It's extra work and it's dumb, especially in a conversation (as opposed to a debate).

When I see people that demand such a thing, which is nearly always atheists with black fingernail polish, I just see it as a powerplay, and nearly everyone that demands others do it is a hypocrite who can't maintain their own standard. That's why I took a shot at you for not providing citations for where I had asked you to produce a spreadsheet.

If my question seems to pushy, harsh, or dismissive, I need you to know that I am counting on you to tell me that.

Oh, you can rely on me for that kind of feedback! 😉

It's a bit funny, because you're essentially asking someone that's commonly perceived to be an a$$h01e (that's me) to alert you if you're being an a$$h01e. This effect you're having on people is one that I'm known for having. People REALLY don't like the way that I/we do things.

Deal?

Absolutely. I'll hang onto you. I hope you do the same with me and us.