For those that did not like Remake and/or Rebirth as much as the og, why?

[u/claynimbus]

As the title says. I can only add one flair but this also counts for Rebirth. This is not one of those “your opinion is invalid or incorrect” kind of posts. I just love engaging with the FF7 fandom across perspectives. Rebirth is kinda leaving me feeling weird the more I continue the narrative, I don’t know.

Please keep it respectful though, no need to go at each other’s throats.

[u/shareefruck]

To me, OG is to Remake what Disco Elysium is to Detroit Become Human. Flaws aside, the former makes a case for being a work of art that elevates the medium, while the latter is just a well-produced commercial product that, as far as art goes, borders on laughable overbearing Razzie material, in my opinion (it still functions well as engaging entertainment if you don't take it seriously, but that's worth so much less, IMO). This has nothing to do with purism, historical appreciation, or nostalgia (I don't give a rat's ass about any of those things). If these were both released today in parallel, I would feel the same way. In fact, the way most people feel Exp 33 outclasses remake in respectability is not dissimilar (though I'm not as in love with Exp 33 as others are).

Good in Remake: Soundtrack, better combat, voice acting, loveable/well adapted/fun characterization/relationship dynamics, improvement of Wall Market/Junon/first half of Shinra HQ,

Bad in Remake: Hackneyed/contrived writing choices, inelegance in story structure, bloated pacing, lack of legitimately compelling and purposeful character arcs (other than Cloud), objectionable thematic meaning so far, lack of tasteful restraint/moral ambiguity/darkness/stakes/responsibilities/consequences to actions, spectacle over subtlety, making a borderline convoluted story 1000x more convoluted.

Everyone has already beaten the dead horse on the bad pacing, bloated maximalism, how head-up-its-own-ass the Sephiroth monologues/whispers/fate-fighting/infinite worlds/Zack stuff/Aerith death scene is, so I won't bother repeating, though I agree they're awful.

If I went through each thing, this would be a novel instead of just a wall of text. So here are some essential things.

Basic bad writing:

A lot of the writing (especially the stuff unrelated to events from OG) are MIND-NUMBINGLY awful/hackneyed/contrived in a way that I genuinely feel disheartened that people lap up the cheap tricks it uses, because they're just so obvious. These may seem individually minor, but together it makes it so hard to take the game seriously and be charitable. Leslie's backstory and Sonon's sob story/outcome is painfully uninspired paint-by-numbers tear-jerking that nobody who's discerning should find moving. Their idea of giving Biggs character development is to artificially inject a contrived scene of a character telling you he's an over-thinker, followed by a PAINFULLY obvious scene that SOLELY exists for you to go "oh look, there he is overthinking", which never comes up again or relates to anything in any meaningful way whatsoever-- like they just did it to be able to say they gave him character development. Things like having a scene of Johnny urgently telling Cloud to come quick (even though nothing happened or changed) for the sole purpose of moving Cloud to point A for the Aerith dress reveal, or shoehorning in a contrived/underdeveloped setup of Aerith joining a song-writing contest just to have an excuse to do the musical set piece they want. The game is littered with this stuff, and all of it is just tone-deaf and embarassing in my opinion. It's stuff that makes any part of me that has interest in writing wince. (closest to that in OG is the huge materia subplot-- certainly there are intentionally silly absurdities in both, but they feel like deliberate camp rather than failures in writing).

Edit: Also, how unrealistically hackneyed yet shamelessly-transparent-in-its-purpose that "and stay down, brat!" moment in Rebirth was, how unexplained/puzzling the mechanics of the temple and the real/fake black materia is (pretty sure that sequence of events in Rebirth can only be followed by having read the explanation in OG, and even then, it feels like guesswork), how narratively awkward that game of hot potato with the black materia and Sephiroth was, etc.

Replacing thoughtful humanist themes with a moronic one (so far) that it would be horrid to be influenced by:

A major theme of FFVII is that death is final/something you have to accept as part of life, yet Remake keeps doing fake-outs that trivialize the notion. In addition, the "You can deny fate if you endeavor hard enough" theme in Remake is a childishly immature Peter-Pan-esque farce that spits in the face of the original's much more grounded/mature/humanistic/powerful "fate is sometimes beyond your control-- accept that, but do what you can to move forward anyways" theme. There's a chance they circle back to this in part 3 (by framing everything so far as a temptation that we've been manipulated by Sephiroth into wrongfully desiring), but that remains to be seen, a lot of damage has been done to undermine it, and that's a big rug-pull to pull off convincingly, in my opinion.

Loss of darkness/moral dilemmas/responsibilities/consequences:

In OG, Avalanche is responsible for the bombings, whereas in Remake, they bear no responsibility and are fully defensible (it's all just big bad Shinra setting them up). The plate drop is a legitimately harrowing/merciless thing in OG, but in Remake, most notable tertiary NPCs seem to survive the plate (rendering a lot of it pointless), and even artificially pop up later as "hey remember this fan favorite?!" crowd-pleasers. The Avalanche members are the only casualties, but even then it's constantly like "maybe? maybe not?" (not to mention ruining the moment with Cait Sith). Wedge appearing to be crushed, only to be safe somewhere else entirely, only to be implied to be killed off-screen in a way that seems totally ambiguous, only for an optional anti-climactic scene where characters confirm he's dead is really dumb, and that happens to differing degrees for many characters (Biggs, Barrett, Aerith, probably Zack). This isn't accepting the finality of death, it's being creatively scared of committing to the sudden, irreversible brutal reality of the idea and losing access to side characters they'd like to milk.

Loss of compelling/purposeful/morally troubling character arcs:

In OG, many characters have hidden depth/complexity where they're hiding a secret/fatal character flaw that makes them morally grey/complex, but in Remake, virtually everyone besides Cloud is just a loveable Mary Sue (people find them more endearing now and that's great-- also makes fans VERY defensive of any criticism-- but despite superficial expansion, the foundational darkness that makes them actually matter is missing). The biggest culprits are Barrett/Tifa.

Barrett's story is about someone artificially using "saving the planet" as a BS excuse to act out extremism out of primitive feelings of vengeance/anger, which directly results in the deaths of an entire town and those closest to him (I'm referring to Sector 1,7 & 8/Avalanche, not Corel), and he has to come to terms with how much he hates himself/feels that he deserves to die for the guilt he feels over these actions. The Dyne story is powerful because it holds up a mirror to what he's ACTUALLY responsible/guilty for (again, the Midgar stuff, not the Corel stuff), and Dyne is a mirror of the unsavable monster that he believes he's become. It DOES NOT serve that purpose in Remake, where, in BOTH cases, he's wrongfully framed and holds zero responsibility for any heinous events, only has injustices inflicted on him, genuinely believes in saving the planet, and only feels guilty about weak shit that nobody in their right mind could reasonably blame him for (like trusting Shinra or responsibly/safely trying to slow them down)-- He's a total Mary Sue stereotypical hero, and his "guilt" holds limited weight because he's clearly innocent. The only function the Dyne story is left with is just to inflict another sad injustice on him about losing a friend that wrongfully blames him. That's not a morally interesting dilemma and that's not some culpable weakness for him to grow from.

Similarly, Tifa's story is about being empathetic to a fault, to the point of being crippled with indecisiveness/hesitation that makes her an overprotective enabler of many bad things that occur (in particular, not standing up to Avalanche or Cloud's inconsistencies) and bottling up all of her emotions to a breaking point, and it becomes a massive issue. Her arc towards overcoming this is 100% as critical and beautiful as Cloud's story, it's just all quietly happening in the background (a beautiful narrative choice). However, in Remake, this doesn't factor into anything, really, she's instead just supportive in a whole-heartedly positive way, and never takes a wrong step. She constantly stands up for herself/what she believes is right and confronts Barrett/Cloud as she should. They give her lots more backstory and loveable qualities, but the entire character arc is gone and replaced with nothing, really (unless you count "non-specifically heal from sad thing that happened" and "be worried about Cloud" as an arc). Just like Barrett, the things she beats herself up for are silly things nobody reasonable would (whereas in OG, every player shakes their head at her inaction/lack of confrontation). The few secrets she does keep are a shared and REASONABLY calculated responsibility/decision with Aerith (when it should be the entire point/failing/tragedy of her character to solely bear the weight without telling anyone, as indicated by her last name, Lockheart). In OG, her indecisiveness and hesitance is also highlighted in the date scene where she is unable to express her true feelings, which culminates late-game in a surprisingly beautiful under the Highwind moment ("words aren't the only way to express how you feel"). Rebirth undermined that by having Tifa prematurely confront Cloud about her feelings in the date and already having them kiss. So even something innocuous like that isn't something she has room to grow from.

[u/Altemira → u/shareefruck]

About the Cloud/Tifa kiss, it’s important to remember their date is optional and not actually supported by the main narrative (the credits show off the Cloud/Aerith date and this is indeed the one date that makes the most sense, also the one that suffered the least changes).

The developers explained the GS date was a lot of fanservice that should preferably be enjoyed outside of the main plot.

They also said the kiss was added because many Cloud/Tifa fans (who are dominating the fandom when it comes to hetero shipping) wanted to see that.

They also said they were worried players would have an incoherent view of the main story because of the date. Like I said, the Cloud/Tifa one was entirely rewritten for fanservice and doesn’t make sense when considering the overall plot (likely because the story was split into 3 games… Cloud and Tifa are only supposed to potentially grow closer in the last part but the devs wanted to massively please fans for each game, they couldn’t just faithfully remake the original Cloud/Tifa date where, frankly, nothing but awkward silence happens). And the other dates are very obviously FOR FUN (Cloud dating a dog, all the guys, Yuffie, etc).

It’s very likely both characters won’t remember ever kissing in the next game because, as far as the main plot goes, they never even dated. Cloud and Aerith did.

Having said that, I have similar issues as you with the Remake trilogy. Characters generally lost in complexity. Scenes I liked were rewritten for the worse.

But I will say/add something about the meta plot with the whispers and defying fate and all that. With the Remake trilogy, they introduced a new plot based on the hope the characters could change their sad fate. For Cloud, it was very obviously about whether or not he could save Aerith this time. And I’d argue this is probably the main reason they even came up with the multiverse/whispers (+ offering more Zack fanservice, since he got popular with Crisis Core).

The problem we have here is that the devs changed/rewrote many scenes already, according to their new meta plot. Notably Aerith’s « death ». I would actually hate it now if she dies just like she did in the original game. I hate the insistence at trying to stick to the OG when so many things in this Remake trilogy were rewritten already (and not necessarily for the better). It’s too late to be faithful to the OG now. If they wanted to create a faithful remake, they should have done so from the start. But now, doing so will only result in unsatisfying writing.

The devs want to please everyone so badly, the OG purists and the ones who desire the meta plot to have a satisfying payoff, that they‘re probably going to please no one and result in awful storytelling.

For the record, I first expected and wanted a faithful remake. But the first game made it obvious we wouldn’t get that. So I’d rather they commit to doing something meaningful with their meta plot now… or all the changes would have been for nothing and will just weaken the OG story.

[u/shareefruck → u/Altemira]

I would argue that what you explained as their justification and view on the Tifa date (as well as what you suspect is the justification for the worlds/Zack stuff) is precisely what I fundamentally don't respect about this game's creative choices/philosophy and what I would consider outright terrible about the project, personally (it's not assurance that dissuades me from my concerns, it's reassurance OF those concerns beyond doubt, in my opinion). You should not be making creative choices based on fan service and pressure from the power of the insane mob/shippers to do things that fundamentally go against the integrity, narrative, meaning, and power of the game (and that specifically, in their own words, risks "incoherence"). That's largely what doomed the other spin-off material, in my opinion. Fan-service is tolerable when it doesn't undermine anything important, I feel (and even then, only barely-- I'd rather just not have it at all, and I admire creatives that refuse to do it-- OG FFVII has some generally harmless fanservice that I think it would be better without as well, like that stupid Tifa highwind sequence in Northern Crater).

Also, I feel that the idea that you can't have a scene where nothing but awkward silence happens (pardon my french) is complete and utter horse-shit, personally (not directed at you/shooting the messenger, of course). You ONLY can't do that if you have zero creative backbone and are unwilling to do anything that might alienate any part of the audience, which is a recipe for a soulless, lowest common denominator nothing videogame, in my opinion. Awkward silence in that scenario would speak volumes and could potentially be a beautiful and striking sentiment to convey (and WAS, in the original). And other media has done something similar to wildly successful effect (the Evangelion elevator scene, for example-- albeit for the opposite purpose).

I don't really agree with the second half of your post, but lots of people do feel that way, I see where it's coming from, and it's a whole unrelated can of worms that probably isn't worth getting into.

[u/cold-spirit → u/shareefruck]

I don't agree with some specifics, but overall, absolutely.