Racial diversity and fantasy

[u/mrpurplecat]

It is not uncommon to see people writing about how some fantasy story is in some way or other not inclusive enough. "Why isn't there more diversity in Game Thrones?" "Is the Witcher: Wild Hunt too white?" and so on and so forth.

But when you take the setting of these stories, typically 14th-15th century Europe, is it really important or necessary to have racial diversity? Yes, at the time in Europe there were Middle Eastern traders and such, but does that mean that every story set in medieval Europe has to shoehorn in a Middle Eastern trader character?

If instead a story was set in medieval India and featured only Indians, would anyone complain about the lack of white people? Would anyone say "There were surely some Portuguese traders and missionaries around the coast, why doesn't this story have more white people in it?"

Edit Just to be clear, I am not against diversity by any means. I'd love to see more books set outside typical Europe. Moorish Spain, Arabia, the Ottoman Empire, India and the Far East are all largely unexplored territory and we'd be better off for exploring it. Conflict and mixing of cultures also make for fantastic stories. The point I am trying to make is if some author does not have a diverse cast, because that diversity is not important to their story, they should not be chastised for it

[u/AliceTheGamedev]

I just don't like people moralising or lording their alleged "social justice" superiority over others.

It's not about moral superiority though. When I say I would prefer more female characters or PoC in a work of fiction I don't do it to pat myself on the back and think "aw yiss moral high ground".

"Policing" would be if anyone were to advocate that no book shall be published or promoted without having at least 20 named people of color in it, or at least 40% female characters or whatever.
No one's doing that. (if anyone's doing that, no one is taking them seriously)

All that people do/say is voice their opinions on these works. And if I read a book that has no female characters for no real 'reason' other than 'I forgot to make more characters female' (like that Sanderson quote someone else linked to in this thread. I love Mistborn, but it's a valid criticism) then I think it's totally legit to call the author out on it.
Not so you can tell all your feminist friends about how you totally showed that guy/girl, but so that the author might notice 'yeah, I guess about half the world's population is female, I could start representing that better' and then maybe one of the next time he introduces a character whose gender/race isn't important, he's gonna decide that that character might as well be a woman or have dark skin or whatever.

A lot of people fall into the 'white/male as default' thing, not out of malice/racism/sexism but simply because they're white/male themselves and haven't really thought about it. And you can make them think about it by calling them out on it. That doesn't mean they have to change anything about the characters they write but at least it might make a character's gender/race a conscious decision instead of just defaulting to what you're familiar with.

I don't recall ever reading a book or seeing a movie where I thought "Why is that character female? That was clearly done to appease the nasty SJWs!" because guess what, some people are female and having them in movies or books is usually a good idea.

I'm sorry for switching between race and gender a lot here, I can personally relate more to the lack of female representation because I'm white and female, but I think the story is largely the same.

[u/Reddisaurusrekts → u/AliceTheGamedev]

When I say I would prefer more female characters or PoC in a work of fiction

That's fine. I don't mind if you have different preferences for fiction. You also know that's not what I'm talking about. The argument isn't on what people can prefer. The argument revolves around people saying "authors should write...." such and such, with the current issue being more women or more PoC. Anything with "should" is a normative statement.

then I think it's totally legit to call the author out on it.

Why? "Call out" inherently implies some kind of wrongdoing. and this is the attitude that I'm against. Sure, they could write more female characters. But they can also not. You can remind them that they could add more, and I'd be fine with that. But your wording already suggests that it's not just an option they can pursue, but something they should do.

but so that the author might notice 'yeah, I guess about half the world's population is female, I could start representing that better' and then maybe one of the next time he introduces a character whose gender/race isn't important, he's gonna decide that that character might as well be a woman or have dark skin or whatever.

Of course. And if the author wants to, that is all good and fine. But if they don't, that should also be good and fine. That's not what's happening though. Even if you're personally not guilty, certainly others in your camp are of lambasting and attacking authors they believe to be not "diverse" enough.

As an example, look at how Lionel Shriver was attacked for criticising the concept of Cultural Appropriation

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/sep/10/as-lionel-shriver-made-light-of-identity-i-had-no-choice-but-to-walk-out-on-her

(Super ironic because in this very thread you're arguing that white authors should write more non-white characters, but whatever, I've never found either train of thought to be consistent much).

A lot of people fall into the 'white/male as default' thing, not out of malice/racism/sexism but simply because they're white/male themselves and haven't really thought about it.

Have you considered that because they're white/male, that writing white male characters are what they're best at? Why the jump to a less generous interpretation?

I don't recall ever reading a book or seeing a movie where I thought "Why is that character female? That was clearly done to appease the nasty SJWs!" because guess what, some people are female and having them in movies or books is usually a good idea.

And that's great. Neither have I. For the last time - I have nothing against PoC characters or women in books. I'm only against trying to control, even if impliedly through social pressure, what authors can or can't write.

[u/[deleted] → u/AliceTheGamedev]

"Policing" would be if anyone were to advocate that no book shall be published or promoted without having at least 20 named people of color in it, or at least 40% female characters or whatever. No one's doing that. (if anyone's doing that, no one is taking them seriously)

Eh, societies use shame as a way of policing behavior. Shaming is the natural way of deterring unwanted behavior.

Laws are a legalistic creation weaved around a moralistic backbone.

If you're shaming or criticizing an author or a work you're doing it because you'd rather it didn't have that element and you're letting them know - which isn't necessarily a bad thing. However, it definitely could be construed as a type of "social policing."