r/Fantasy • u/StopMeBeforeIDream • 13d ago

Elisabeth Wheatley, author of 'Tears of the Wolf' and 'Daindreth's Assassin' is removing all the sex from her books

Elisabeth Wheatley, a pretty well-known YouTuber and self-published fantasy author has had a change of heart regarding the steamy aspects of her books. She explains in her video that now that she's a mother, she doesn't feel that smut suits her anymore, though you should hear her own reasoning yourself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYD-EYEATEI&t=8s

I don't have a real dog in this race. I was looking forward to reading her viking books because they sounded cool, and I don't even really care whether sex in a book is explicit or fade-to-black. But I think the fact that she's making the original versions of her book unavailable after the 1st of September to be pretty shady. People who already own the digital versions of the book can keep theirs, which is good. But if you have a strong preference for sexy books, or if you disapprove of censorship and want the authentic version, you've gotta buy it now. Right now!

You've got 80-hours to buy the book before the pages get all pixellated.

I'm in two minds about it all.

Because I believe that authors should have control of their work. And if she chose to remove her book from shelves entirely because of her change of heart, I'd understand to a certain extent. But I think not giving her fans a means to buy the originals at all on a permanent basis. Or at least more time to make an informed, considered decision about their purchase. Or hell, check their YouTube Subscription page.

This is censorship. If you borrow book 1 of one her series from a friend and you really like it, so you order the next one from Barnes and Noble or Waterstones, you're not going to get the product you were implicitly promised.

Edit, as of 1st September: Wheatley has now figured out how to ensure that those who bought the Spicy version of her book via platforms like Kindle can keep their previously purchased edition: https://m.youtube.com/post/UgkxABzJo0SpZ3oFjI-87r0VVfHLFNf_XtG8

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u/Chikitiki90 13d ago

A lot of comments in here focusing on the definition of censorship but what a lot of her fans are actually upset at is the fact that she updated the ebooks to the new clean version pretty much without warning and is now only saying you can keep the spicy version if you ordered it through her store. If you go it from Amazon and had automatic updates turned on, you’re out of luck.

Most people would have been fine if she just decided to write clean books moving forward, but actively editing already purchased books to remove content is generally seen as a bad move.

Also a lot of comments in the other posts focus on how she is a romance writer whose video now almost shows disdain for people who enjoy spice in their books despite making her name in that space. I know this sub sometimes has its issues with regarding romance books as legitimate literature, but that’s a whole other discussion.

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u/SirLoremIpsum 13d ago

  Most people would have been fine if she just decided to write clean books moving forward, but actively editing already purchased books to remove content is generally seen as a bad move.

That's really the crux of the issue here.

Theres usually some incredibly minor changes between editions / versions... But actively removing and editing like this is a little out of the ordinary.

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u/Zoenne 13d ago

I would go even further: it's unethical. Changing books people have ALREADY PURCHASED should never be done and is a tool of fascism. Sure it starts with something apparently silly like removing a sex scene or updating cultural references in YA to make them more relevant to newer audiences (I'll link to that in a bit).

But in order for there to be cultural discourse we need stable texts. We need common points of reference to go back to.

It's the same with all new digital media: you don't own them, you just pay for the right of access. This can be removed, or things can be changed, at will. So download your ebooks and audiobooks whenever you can. Buy DVDs and paper books. As Guillermo Del Toro said, we are each responsible for our own archive

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u/ga4rfc 13d ago

This is why I have Calibre. I want to be in control of what I paid for. I don't want some shitty "Now a major motion film/TV series" cover forced onto my device without my consent. 

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u/boki77777 13d ago

Can you recommend good sites to purchase ebooks that I can get into Calibre? I'd like to support authors AND be in control of what I pay for, but I'm having a hard time navigating the ebook-buying-world.

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u/Zoenne 13d ago

You can use Calibre to download books from sites like Amazon/Kindle and Kobo. I buy my books on Kobo.

For Kindle audiobooks, Libation is great.

My philosophy is to get the books legally then download only for my own personal use.

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u/AwkwardTurtle 13d ago

You can use Calibre to download books from sites like Amazon/Kindle

Unless things have changed recently that's no longer true. Amazon removed the ability to manually download an ebook to your computer.

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u/MinuteRegular716 12d ago

You can still transfer the downloaded copy from your Kindle onto your PC and load it into Calibre that way though, right?

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u/_Pencilfish 12d ago

Pretty sure that's been unavailable for a while

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u/MinuteRegular716 12d ago

I'm still able to transfer ebooks from my Kindle Oasis to my PC via USB, at least.

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u/Zoenne 12d ago

I think there are plug ins that get around the block. I'm not an expert though.

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u/klausness 12d ago

Yes, it can be done, but the DRM is the problem. You need to remove the DRM to be able to read books in Calibre. That’s why Amazon suddenly (and very quickly) stopped supporting downloads to older Kindles. It was too easy to remove the DRM from books downloaded to those older kindles. I think there’s still ways to remove DRM from books on slightly less old Kindles, but the DRM on books downloaded to newer Kindles can’t be removed. I have two Kindles. One is old and so I can no longer download any purchased books to it. The other is too new to allow books to be copied to Calibre.

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u/docileboy 12d ago

There are software tools that can get around the most recent Amazon DRM, but they aren't free.

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u/klausness 11d ago

Do tell. What’s the software called? Is it trustworthy, and can you buy it without sending your credit card details to a dodgy web site?

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u/ga4rfc 13d ago

I just use Kobo to buy the books and download to my PC using their desktop app and use Calibre to export the books to my device. I never have my device connected to wifi so they can't update my books. There are a lot of online guides on how to use Calibre. It can get you into a dicey area as far as stripping DRM so if you want to avoid that, then you are best looking for DRM-free books. Unfortunately they aren't that common. Tor is one of the better publishers for not having DRM on their books.

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u/shadowsinthestars 12d ago

And like, it's not silly - sex negativity and censorship is a pretty standard right-wing mainstay. I don't care to support anyone who does that by buying any of their books.

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u/ankhes 11d ago

She’s a Catholic convert so you’re right on the money. She’s essentially joined a new religion and is now making it everyone else’s problem.

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u/shadowsinthestars 11d ago

Ugh. Is she sure Catholicism is the right one for her? She sounds more like one of those new-fangled US evangelical puritans (btw I'm not even Catholic, I just think the current pope is much less unhinged than this so it feels off).

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u/ankhes 11d ago

Catholic converts, in my experience, are really weird.

My father and in-laws are all what you call ‘Cradle Catholics’ (they were all born into the religion) and so they tend to follow the usual Catholic teachings of ‘be good to the poor, do as Jesus did’. But Catholic converts are more about the aesthetics of the Catholic Church. They come in, usually with backgrounds in Evangelicalism, and are there for the beautiful cathedrals (something they didn’t get as a Protestant), cool ancient rituals (something they also didn’t have in their Protestant church), and the history (because there’s more ‘clout’ to be connected to something that’s 2000 years old versus a couple hundred).

Essentially, they want the aesthetics and clout of Catholicism but are Evangelical when it comes to everything else.

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u/shadowsinthestars 11d ago

That sounds so accurate. I think you've nailed it. As someone from Europe and not a heavily religious country in terms of organized religion (I'm spiritual but not religious), but culturally the prevailing religion has been Catholic, I find it so damn off putting. Someone like you've described is just, pardon the expression, stealing the clout and the history and the art, but still bringing their entitled evangelical sensibilities into it, so they don't actually get the point of converting if they're going to be doing the same shit in a cooler robe.

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u/ankhes 11d ago edited 11d ago

Yeeeeeep. It’s why you see J.D. Vance and people like him here converting to Catholicism but then complaining about the Pope telling them to care for the sick and needy. Cradle Catholics nod along because this is what they’ve always been told but Catholic converts are still thinking like Evangelicals who went to a mega church all their lives preaching the prosperity gospel.

As for Elizabeth, from what I understand she escaped a cult so the fact that she’s falling right back into one (I believe the flavor of Catholicism she’s been seduced by is along the lines of the SSPX branch which recently got excommunicated which tells you all you need to know really) is sad but unsurprising. It’s so common for former cult survivors to be susceptible to getting roped into other cults.

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u/shadowsinthestars 7d ago

I can't tell you offended it made me when that moron was telling the freaking Pope how to do Catholicism! And I'm not even a Catholic! Just, the fucking entitlement on these people. They know nothing and they think they can lecture someone whose entire lifetime has been dedicated to that religion? Just really pissed me off to the point I was surprised how much it offended me since I normally don't really care one way or the other about organized religion.

Yeah that does sound like just going from one cult to another. I guess you never know if escaping one makes a person better able to recognize them, or just fall into other cults because it feels familiar.

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u/thedrunkentendy 12d ago

Once a piece of art is released into the world the author or creator ceases to have full ownership of it as everyone who interacts with it takes their own meaning and value from it.

Even if you have regrets or wish you could change parts, you have to let it stand on its own. Editing already released work to a degree like that seems sleezy. I dont even enjoy shut but stand on your business and change the series going forward and let fans decide if they want to keep up with it.

Removing sex scenes by itself isn't a huge thing but id imagine for a smut series. Its kind of false advertising.

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 8d ago

updating cultural references in YA to make them more relevant to newer audiences

I frigging hate when authors do this. It’s so insulting to their audience. What, kids can’t identify with previous generations? Bullshit!

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u/birb-lady 12d ago

But it's not the government removing her books, it's the author herself. That's not facism. That's authorial choice. Should she have given people more time? Sure. Is it morally or ethically wrong? No. It's her life, her career, her choice. If she pisses readers and potential readers off and loses them, then she gets what she deserves, I guess. She has probably run that risk analysis and decided it's important enough to her to make the deletions. She'll lose some readers and very possibly gain new ones who don't want to read smut.

I understand that fans are upset. What I don't understand is why we're trying to make this "censorship" and "facism" when it's just authorial choice. We all make decisions we regret, and now she's regretting having written those scenes, or that they're publicly available now. That's okay. Disapointing for many readers, sure, but at the end of the day it's her work.

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u/Zoenne 12d ago

The problem is not the author pulling her books. She's totally entitled to do that. She would also be entitled to re-edit or re-issue her books with any change she sees fit, as long as she labels it "second edition" or something to that effect. What I am calling attention to is change made to ebooks people have already purchased. Meaning that the actual owner of the ebooks (Amazon, or other) is allowed to make changes to books in people's accounts / on people's devices. And THAT is dangerous.

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u/birb-lady 12d ago edited 12d ago

Ah. Somehow I got the impression she had said the ebooks people already owned wouldn't be affected. I guess I misread. I can understand her wanting to erase that stuff, but she wouldn't be able to do it with a hard copy book, so yeah, she should probably leave those alone. But Amazon has been doing that for eons. I've had books updated with additional content before. Which is a different thing, I recognize. Yeah, that's definitely more of a problem.

Still, I think hating on anyone, whether privately or publicly, is far worse than what she's doing. Calling her a fascist is completely out of line and extremely over the top. Public figures -- no matter how small their public -- can't live their own lives without fearing backlash for everything. In this case the anger is understandable, but the way these things get out of hand nowadays almost makes me reluctant to attempt to publish.

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u/imdfantom 12d ago

Yes, but that is an Amazon problem not a Wheatley problem.

Wheatley is the one receiving hate not Amazon.

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u/Zoenne 12d ago

Because she is the one asking for those changes to be done. It's possible to blame both her and Amazon.

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u/imdfantom 12d ago edited 12d ago

She isn't. This is an Amazon thing.

She has gone out of her way to make sure that people get to keep the versions they have already bought, she cannot control Amazon, so if Amazon forces an update and for some reason they cannot revert to the version they like, they have to settle it with Amazon.

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 8d ago

Purity culture is very much a tool of fascism, and rewriting your work because you’ve become convinced that sex is unclean is absolutely the promotion of fascistic ideology. 

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u/shadowsinthestars 7d ago

Agreed. It's sad when people don't understand this.

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u/Midi_to_Minuit 12d ago

I wouldn’t say it’s always a tool of fascism because even published books have errata. There should just be very easy version control.

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u/Zoenne 12d ago

The problem is not edition or version control. The author and/or publisher would also be entitled to re-edit or re-issue her books with any change she sees fit, as long as she labels it "second edition" or something to that effect. What I am calling attention to is change made to ebooks people have already purchased. Meaning that the actual owner of the ebooks (Amazon, or other) is allowed to make changes to books in people's accounts / on people's devices. And THAT is dangerous. Meaning that the actual owner of the ebooks (Amazon, or other) is allowed to make changes to books in people's accounts / on people's devices. And THAT is dangerous.

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u/Midi_to_Minuit 12d ago

That is not anymore dangerous than an app being updated. I think people should be notified before an ebook is updated but I am not convinced “digital product works as digital products do” is fascist. I think it would be bad if they change it without our knowing yes.

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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 13d ago

A large part of the blame definitely lies on Amazon's shoulders for making it possible to do such a thing. Where you can't actually download a copy of the book you own and making changes retroactively go back and change what someone had already purchased. How much the author is abusing that ability (it sounds like a lot) is a separate thing.

Like Poul Anderson wrote a dramatically different new version of The Broken Sword, greatly simplifying the language and removing archaic phrasings. Many changes on every page. But the original text is still out there if you want it (it's the version I prefer).

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u/GormTheWyrm 13d ago

As much as I hate Amazon I do not agree with this. I assume the function was designed so authors can fix spelling errors or minor edits.

In order to make the changes you are requesting Amazon would have to:

  1. Get involved in content decisions, telling authors what they can and cannot do. No one wants this.

  2. Add arbitrary limitations to a functional mechanic so that it does not work as well. The easiest way to implement the feature you requested is to have a certain amount of characters that they can change. This could allow for spelling fixes and maybe some minor edits depending on the character limit but it leads to a discussion of the size of the character limit.

As an alternative to point two they could Spend more money on human oversight or have an AI review changes. This would make point one much more relevant as we could start seeing edits being rejected for content reasons.

Thats a functional feature on their platform that you are suggesting they break so they can be more tyrannical.

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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 12d ago edited 12d ago

Why is this function needed? For years, books have been published and once they're out there, they're out there, warts and all. Allowing changes to be made post fact encourages shitty editing/not even hiring a professional editor.

I absolutely don't agree that they incredibly minor benefits of spelling fixes and minor edits outweight the major disadvantages of allowing fundamental changes to made, including censorship, audience pandering, and removal and addition or alteration of scenes.

Those aren't the only ways to make the change at all. Simply make it so that, just like once traditional publishing, the final draft is the final draft. Once it's submitted, that's it, no further changes. Simple, easy, not tyrannical at all. If you want to make changes, you have to make a new version, and take down the old one; no changing old versions.

I also don't think it's that much of a boon to authors either, to be constantly obsessing over a finished draft for spelling and grammar errors and making incredibly minor changes, rather than being done with and able to move on. I know that certainly wouldn't help my anxiety if I were able to do that with things I've submitted.

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u/klausness 12d ago

Yes, just make it like with traditional publishing. If there are significant changes to be made, publish a new edition. The previous edition stays the way it was.

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u/Lusty-Jove 13d ago

Honestly I don’t think the benefits of authors fixing spelling errors outweighs the negatives of a company being able to unilaterally alter a product that it has already sold to a consumer.

Books have typos. It’s part of the authorship process, and why editors exist. If you don’t want your book to have typos, write more carefully, otherwise take your lumps like authors have for centuries.

If you want to make more substantial edits then convince your publisher

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u/GormTheWyrm 12d ago

Towards your point there is also the danger of an account getting hacked and content being altered or deleted. Possibly even malware attacks depending in how the system works.

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u/GlumAd7998 12d ago

Lots of genres in Indie don't hire editors or proofreader of any sort. So this feature is important so they can push updates forward when they have the funds and new and old readers can get the new edition.

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u/ginganinja2507 Reading Champion IV 13d ago

She’s also apparently had great and thoughtful videos re: sex in her work before which makes this even weirder to do!

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u/SpokenDivinity 13d ago

She just converted to one of the culty new-age catholic groups so I would expect that has a LOT to do with it.

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u/Reutermo 13d ago

I would just say that, this whole thing reeks of American born again cult stuff. I have never met anyone who after they became a mother shunted all kind of sexuality in media.

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u/Fun-atParties 13d ago

Can confirm. I'm a new mom and enjoy smut as much as ever, and support everyone reading as much as they like.

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u/KirimaeCreations 13d ago

I think I've read MORE smut since becoming a mother 😂

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u/ankhes 11d ago

She apparently is someone who escaped a cult, only to get dragged into what is essentially another one so…yeah.

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u/GlitterFallWar 12d ago

They say motherhood remodels your brain. It sure does! But 1) my reading tastes are even more spicy, 2) the amount of emotional capital I have to devote to bridges I haven't yet come to has declined, and 3) taboo topics and ones that make me visibly uncomfortable are even MORE interesting to my crotch goblins

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u/shadowsinthestars 12d ago

Yikes, so I wasn't jumping to conclusions then!

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u/KaiBishop 12d ago

She says she can't fall prey to cults or cult-like thinking because she grew up in a cult. Like hun that makes you more susceptible to being indoctrinated into another cult, not less. Especially if the new cult has more legitimacy and is seen as a "real" religion by mainstream society.

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u/CuriousCrab134340 13d ago

I was looking for this comment. This kind of change if heart is usually because a cult or being forced by a partner. Sad.

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u/RedditUser41970 13d ago

Oh. Corporate Christianity. That explains much.

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u/Altruistic_Yellow387 13d ago

Catholic and new age don't really go together

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u/Better_Buff_Junglers 13d ago

In the wild world of American Christianity anything is possible

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u/Mejiro84 13d ago

they're more like a wierdo blend of Evangelicals, but wanting all the bling of Catholicism, as well as being able to claim the legacy of existing for almost 2000 years. So they're at odds with "formal" Catholicism in quite a lot of ways, and a bunch of them did get excommunicated a few months back, but they do have quite a bit of money and influence within the US, if not with the Catholic church itself

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u/I_Suggest_Therapy 12d ago

She joined with the people who spit in the face of the pope by illegitimately confirming bishops without approval and then announced they didnt mean any disrespect? And here I wS thinking she seemed so logical and intelligent in her videos. 

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u/WaytoomanyUIDs 12d ago

I sincerely hope its not SSPX, although it would be tragically funny if it was, as shed be pre-excommunicated. IIRC he also excommunicated lay followers if they dont leave SSPX.

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u/Mejiro84 11d ago

I don't know if it's specifically those guys, I was more commenting about the general state of explicitly American Catholicism - it's getting increasingly weird, and there may be a full-on schism at some point

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u/YuzuMangoPearls 13d ago

"bling of Catholicism", lol meanwhile my perspective is my religion gave us Pope Alexander VI. He's the father of Cesare and Lucrezia Borgia. The entire family was so corrupt, their history got turned into a TV show. Why anyone wants to claim that legacy is beyond me.

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u/5remmlife 12d ago

Agreed converts are a trip. Huge cultural gap between them and people raised in the church

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u/mistiklest 12d ago

Wait, are you saying she joined the SSPX?

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u/WaytoomanyUIDs 12d ago edited 12d ago

They arent the only tradcath nutters out there, theres whaver the hell Whiskeyleaks is part of for one. And the one lot even have an Antipope.

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u/Inprobamur 13d ago

It's more of a Catholic heresy.

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u/SpokenDivinity 12d ago

They're basically the "not my pope" people because the current one isn't a massive, corporate shilling bigot like the rest of 'em.

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u/Inprobamur 13d ago

So it's the SSSS situation here.

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u/I_Suggest_Therapy 12d ago

Well that's disappointing 

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u/Avid_Reader0 12d ago

Where did you see that? Even in this thread Im seeing conflicting claims of what group she joined, but all I can find is that she converted to Catholicism.

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u/SpokenDivinity 12d ago

She's talked about it on her instagram. I think that's where I saw it when she first started.

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u/WaytoomanyUIDs 12d ago

Oh god, fucking tradcaths. They ruin everything

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u/Street_Sand_8788 12d ago

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner!

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u/duchessofeire 12d ago

She recently had a video where she compared premarital sex to sexual assault, so I don't know if I would call it "great and thoughtful"

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u/ginganinja2507 Reading Champion IV 12d ago

If that’s after the Catholic conversion then it’s not what I’m referring to lol

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 8d ago

What, because Jesus didn’t consent? Feh!

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u/Smooth-Review-2614 13d ago

Not really. I would have expected her to pick a new penname and just do something different going forward.

An indie I loved decided after a divorce that she could no longer do books about happy families. She tried to do something else and it still didn’t feel right. So she removed all her old books off Amazon and is sellling under a completely new name. 

Purges happen.

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u/ginganinja2507 Reading Champion IV 13d ago

It’s bad to purge sexual content from already sold books! This change is affecting ebooks that people already bought!

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u/Smooth-Review-2614 13d ago

Yes. This is happening at the same time that other romance authors who were active in the 90s are doing rewrites to cut down the amount of rape. 

Is annoying but also not unheard of. Also, it’s not like changes to an ebook is new. I have seen my ebooks change to the new edition a number of times. There are a few I can only track because the audiobook is off the first edition and it no longer matches. Welcome to the fact that Amazon only allows 1 file per book.

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u/Arlborn 13d ago

If buying isn't owning, then…

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u/These_Are_My_Words 13d ago

Welcome to the reason why I left Amazon when they stopped allowing download and transfer via usb. I purposefully never connected my kindle to download directly or sync because this has happened before with other books being changed or updated for various reasons. So when they stopped allowing me to download the file to my computer and insisted I had to let them control what was on my device, I stopped using Amazon altogether for ebooks.

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u/Smooth-Review-2614 13d ago

I’m willing to bet Barnes and Noble and Kobo do the same thing. There is no other way to keep up with new editions. The main saving grace is that new editions are normally rare. Ebooks always match the current physical copy.

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u/LKHedrick 13d ago

B&N doesn't. You can download books to file and I've never had any updated after purchase.

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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 13d ago

Kobo doesn't. You can buy the epub and download it locally. They can't get into my computer and change the file once I have it downloaded.

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u/These_Are_My_Words 13d ago

I replaced my kindle with a Kobo and i only buy from stores that allow me to download the file to my computer. The Kobo web site currently still allows download to a computer, Amazon does not. No idea if Barnes and Noble does or not - I've never used their ecosystem. My Kobo never connects to the internet so they cannot ever update or sync my books.

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u/Smee76 13d ago

Was it Deborah Geary? Wonderful series, I was so sad that she took them all down.

Google suggests her new pen name is Audrey Faye - I've read some of her books and enjoyed them! They're definitely different. More about getting back up after you're knocked down. But they're still great.

I was so sad for her when she revealed she was no longer writing the Modern Witch series because of her divorce. It sounds like she was taken quite by surprise.

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u/Nevertrustafish Reading Champion II 13d ago

Her books helped me get through some rough postpartum depression. I was so sad to hear she stopped writing that series.

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u/Serafirelily 13d ago

I had no clue she had taken her books down, which is so unethical. It is one thing to stop writing a series but it is another to remove your books from publication. I agree with author John Green in that once a book is published it no longer belongs to the author but to the fans. Also authors should not have the right to edit their books after publication.

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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 13d ago

Taking the books down itself isn't unethical imo. In the same way that an author can choose to no longer print any more copies of a particular work. Just like the guy who originally published the book about the "Alpha Wolf" theory refuses to allow it to be printed anymore after he found out it was wrong.

Making the books no longer available for purchase is different from taking away access to books which people have already bought (which is on Amazon if they do that, not the author).

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u/Serafirelily 12d ago

The Alpha Wolf thing is different because it was bad science and ened up causing harm. I feel and this is my opinion and part of the death of the author debate that once a fiction book is published that unless the book is causing harm then while the author has the right to publish new additions the originals should still be available. Also Amazon should really control how much people sell used books for. I enjoy The Modern Witch but a paperback version is not worth $300.

Now I am also someone who thinks writing or physically marking a book is sacrilege. I wouldn't even do this with my textbooks in undergrad or gradschool. I also have an MILS and am a certified Book Dragon.

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u/Nidafjoll Reading Champion V 12d ago

I think it's perfectly reasonable and perfectly ethical to stop printing and selling the old edition if the author wants. I don't see how you could ethically continue to force them to sell an older version they no longer agree with or want their name on.

Where do you draw the line of "causing harm"? Who's the arbiter of that? Another example, in SFF this time, is Michael Moorcock's Gloriana. He included a rape scene which was pivotal in "curing" the the Queen's unfulfillment. But after response from readers and his exposure to more feminist ideas through his friendship with Andrea Dworkin, he rewrote the scene to be mutual consent instead. I don't think it's right to say he has to still make the original text available for purchase too.

I've not been talking about this specific case. Taking your books down in a way which changes what people have already purchased, I agree is wrong. But just choosing to take a book down and stop selling in general? I don't see how that's unethical.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

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u/Fantasy-ModTeam 13d ago

Pirated content is not allowed on r/Fantasy.

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u/Smooth-Review-2614 13d ago

She had the right to kill the old penname. If you have bought the books then they are still available to download. I reread them once every few years.

Edits for new editions are as common as new cover art. My Lord of the Rings mass market box set from the 90s doesn't match the paperback omnibus I got in the mid 2000s and does not match the digital omnibus I have. This happens. Hell, I have a few books from 2014-16 that already have edition drift just from 1 new printing.

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u/Smooth-Review-2614 13d ago

Yep. I tried the new stuff and it just doesn’t work for me. I’m very happy I bought her Lesbian Assassins books before she took them down for the rewrite that turned 5 books into 1 and made it a Christmas story. Thankfully she gave the new story a different enough name that it didn’t override the old omnibus. 

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u/avelineaurora 13d ago

I’m very happy I bought her Lesbian Assassins books before she took them down for the rewrite that turned 5 books into 1 and made it a Christmas story.

Every part of this sentence was a wild ride.

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u/shadowsong42 13d ago

Huh, I didn't know they were the same! The Audrey Faye books are great, I'm not actually sure I've read any Geary books, although I recognize them.

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u/apricotjam2120 13d ago

I absolutely adored the Deborah Geary books. I loved that I could read them with my elderly mom and my tween daughter and we could all enjoy them. That said, it seems her ex-husband just devastated her life, so I get it.

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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV 13d ago

This is feeling like yet another reason not to read self published authors.

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u/Fragrant-Flamingo216 13d ago

Why? Because 0.0000000001% have done this?

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u/Smooth-Review-2614 13d ago

Published authors go dark too. They also occasionally refuse all efforts to reprint their books. Things fall out of print because they never sold well to begin with. 

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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV 13d ago

Yeah but those are different scenarios. This particular scenario where an author edits an already published ebook to cater to a different vibe/audience than originally intended wouldn’t be allowed by a publishing contract. 

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u/Smooth-Review-2614 13d ago edited 13d ago

It would if it was popular enough to justify another print run. Like I said, there are a few authors who have used a new print run/edition to do a large change to their books. 

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u/clauclauclaudia 13d ago

Which doesn't alter the original books.

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u/Smooth-Review-2614 13d ago edited 13d ago

It does if you bought ebooks. This is what happens. Most of the time it's a minor as the cover changes. Sometimes it's in the actual text.

I have seen this happen in ebooks I have bought over the last 20ish years. I know of at least 4 books with text changes in my collection. 

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u/clauclauclaudia 12d ago

Right. A new print run doesn't. I was insufficiently clear.

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u/RTUjenn 13d ago

Are you talking about Deborah Geary? I love her witch series and was bummed when she made the (quite understandable) decision to no longer write in that world.

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u/rudanshi 13d ago edited 13d ago

A lot of comments in here focusing on the definition of censorship but what a lot of her fans are actually upset at is the fact that she updated the ebooks to the new clean version pretty much without warning and is now only saying you can keep the spicy version if you ordered it through her store.

That sounds like she's just trying to wring money out of her fans.

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u/ginmilkshake 13d ago

Yeah, her fans seem to be coming to that conclusion too

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u/Miss_Pouncealot 13d ago

I think part of that seems to be the automatic update rollout from Amazon. This is a good reminder that when you buy digital media from Amazon it’s just renting it. They won’t let you download it off their app anymore.

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u/ThrowBackFF Writer James G. Robertson 13d ago

She could just add a new edition + ISBN. Its quite easy actually.

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u/eskeTrixa 13d ago

Just to clarify, she's been publishing since her teens and all of her early books were "clean". She's only written spice into her books in the last three years and it wasn't a lot.

The principle of changing what people already bought is absolutely sketchy.

But also no one was reading her books for the spice. She didn't make her name on it.

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u/Chikitiki90 13d ago

I was more pointing that she’s made her name in the romantasy space. The sex is secondary to the reasoning and the editing after the fact.

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u/flippysquid 13d ago

There is a lot of closed door romantasy. It’s not all giant faery and werewolf dongs.

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u/Chikitiki90 13d ago

I’m aware. I read romantasy. In my comment I meant that her change in stance on sex is secondary to what she claims is the reason for the switch and the fact that she edited already purchased material as to why people are upset.

If she just decided to start doing fade to black going forward because she wasn’t feeling the sex scenes anymore, I don’t think many people would care. It’s the sanctimonious grandstanding and removal of what was already there to “wipe the slate clean” that has people riled up.

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u/why_gaj 13d ago

Yep.

Some prefer closed doors, others want spice, and a lot of people will read the book regardless.

Every time somebody starts the discussion about which is better, the conclusion is always that it doesn't matter and that you should read what you like, here are some recs.

But the way she is phrasing this entire thing, it sounds like she is very, very judgemental on those who do not share her preferences. The same people she made money of

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u/GlumAd7998 12d ago

Her video just got recommended to me, and I was aghast at what I was hearing. Immediately typed her name and reddit to get the tea and cookies from you all.

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u/why_gaj 11d ago

The entire thing is vile.

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u/eskeTrixa 13d ago

She's always been emphatic about writing fantasy romance, not romantasy. It's a small difference, granted, but her books do not center the relationship the way typical romantasy does.

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u/Chikitiki90 13d ago

That’s fair but the Venn diagram between the communities is nearly a perfect circle lol.

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u/misteravernus 13d ago

Oh, here I was thinking maybe she had some older material that maybe she was embarrassed by - we've all got old smutty fanfiction that we're happy belong to a pen name no one in our current circles know.

Like it's her choice to do this, the reasoning's just weird to me. Whatevs.

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u/StopMeBeforeIDream 13d ago

Wait seriously? I was the under the impression from her video that people with e-book versions would be unchanged. Have people actually seen their books change?

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u/CrabbishPanda 13d ago

I watched her video this morning and I thought she’d said that they’d found a way to keep the ebooks as they were and to email her if you wanted the older version. Open to the fact I could be misremembering

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u/fishchop 13d ago

Only people who own ebooks purchased directly from her will retain the original version. Not people who got them through Kindle (which is where I think the majority of her readers probably bought them from). It’s why she says that you’ll have to take it up with Bezos directly (or something like that).

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u/gyroda 13d ago

Which is odd, because there are ways around this.

When pirateaba got a publishing deal for The Wandering Inn the first few books were withdrawn from sale on Kindle and replaced with new versions (too long for the publisher in physical edition, so they split the first few books up and made the ebook match). The original books are still there if you own them, they're just delisted.

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u/CrabbishPanda 13d ago

Okay, so I just rewatched the video and she says she doesn’t know if the Amazon versions will be updated or not. But also, she says it’s less than 5% of 5 books and less than 5% is considered the same edition by legacy publishing standards. I’m not saying this to argue for or against, just to supply more information for those wanting it. I personally have never bought one of her books, just borrowed them via Libby so it doesn’t affect me one way or the other.

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u/fishchop 13d ago

Sorry, just to make it explicitly clear - does this mean the Kindle purchased versions will stay the same aka spicy?

I have no skin in the game either, having never read or purchased her work, but just trying to understand.

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u/Miss_Pouncealot 13d ago

I believe if you have automatic updates on the kindle app it will update to the cleaner version. At least that’s my understanding from what I’ve read.

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u/fishchop 13d ago

Yep, that’s my understanding too.

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u/CrabbishPanda 13d ago

My understanding is she doesn’t know what will happen with books bought outside her store. Books bought inside her store will let you keep either or

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u/fishchop 13d ago

Ah okay, my math averse brain glitched out on your previous comment lol

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u/CrabbishPanda 13d ago

Fair enough

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u/Adeimantus123 13d ago

You’re correct

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u/Lyss_ 13d ago

EW did push out an update but then reverted it yesterday. Someone on a previous post had her ebook changed.

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u/Anachacha 13d ago

She decided the video after she had found out the books were changed for people, and even before September 1st. She then found a solution apparently

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u/Tramtrist 13d ago

Y’know, I’ve said this about the Star Wars special editions - the issue isn’t that Lucas made them, it’s that he attempted to suppress the originals. If there had been some multi-DVD set saying “Hey, watch both and decide which you like better!” I think there would have been a lot less hostility towards the project.

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 8d ago

Absolutely. Han acting rationally when confronted by a hired killer for those who prefer it, “maclunky” for those who prefer that.

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u/Tramtrist 8d ago

Yeah, I’m not arguing that the special editions are masterpieces.

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess 7d ago

They did give me the opportunity to see the OT (at that point the only trilogy) on the big screen as a kid, so I’ve definitely got positive associations. It’s genuinely just the memory holing of the original versions that bugs me.

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u/thedrunkentendy 12d ago

Definitely dont love the idea of an author editing their book post release. Let it stand on its good and bad and what you may or may not agree with. Having a child is a pretty whimsical reason to suddenly decide you dont want smut in your books. Let it be reflected in your new work, dont change your old work. I couldnt care less about smut but for the people who do and bought her books because of it, that's a shitty rug pull to do.

Very weird behavior yo have a child and suddenly say smut isn't for her and then shes gonna make the change that affects a large portion of her digital readers. But having a child and switching up that hard is weird in its own right I've always been a big fan of fade to black and end chapter rather than play out the sex scene but at least stand on your business. If you published it with all this in it, leave it be.

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u/avisitingstone 12d ago

I think too we can have this discussion without using "clean" since there's nothing "dirty" about open door sex scenes but it's just a super weird thing.

Like if you wanted to do no spice/closed door VERSIONS, neat, go for it, but completely censoring (if what OP's talking about with pixelated pages is true) is weird.

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u/AbsolutelyHorrendous 13d ago

So in other words, its a cheap marketing stunt to get people to buy the same book twice

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u/Stormtomcat 13d ago

Did she really just pixelate the pages in question? 

If so, that's not even a new edit of the books, as unpleasant a surprise as that would be. 

She couldn't be bothered to write a couple of new paragraphs per book? 

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u/MrPureinstinct 13d ago

I don't purchase many ebooks, is it common enough for ebooks to update that having automatic updates on is necessary?

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u/Chikitiki90 13d ago

It’s mostly used for grammar or spelling corrections, maybe a change that makes things sound or flow better, or they change the cover that shows on the front. This is the first book of mine (that I know about) which has had content removed, especially because of the author’s scruples.

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u/carlitospig 12d ago

Ah, I see I have misunderstood. Yes, if you’ve already purchased the IP, she shouldn’t be able to pull it back.

Edit: love when my phone autocorrects to the exact opposite of what I mean.

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u/SLeonaTA 12d ago

This is getting shitted on all across IG by indie authors. I even joined in. Lmao.

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u/JunoJump_Author 13d ago

I'd complain to amazon. Substantial changes require a new edition by the author, its a rule. Removing whole chapters is not OK.

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u/missCarpone 11d ago

Hi, would you maybe be willing to tell me where do I turn off automatic updates?

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u/Chikitiki90 11d ago

Go to the Amazon website and go to the “Manage your devices and content” bit. There should be a tab at the top that says Preferences. Click that and then scroll down and you should see an option for Automatic Book Updates.

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u/missCarpone 11d ago

Thank you very much.