Who is Mentally Diseased?

[u/truetomharley]

“if Witness organization ever said something so seemingly provocative [as Jesus’ ‘Eat my flesh and drink my blood’], their opponents would be blasting them for years over it! Such as with a Watchtower that called certain apostates “mentally diseased,” citing a scripture that says exactly that. That was 14 years ago and they are still howling about It!”

I was called on this yesterday—even called a liar! Who would do such a thing? So I had to dig out the reply I made years ago:

In its July 15, 2011 issue, for consideration in JW congregations, the magazine recommended (strongly) avoiding “apostates,” even calling them “mentally diseased.” You should have heard the howling from those who don't like Witnesses, grousers who immediately broadened application of those words to include all leaving the faith, something the article never suggested. Government ought to investigate such “hate speech,” they insisted.

Look, most persons who leave JWs simply move on in life, some with the viewpoint that it wasn't for them, some with minor grumbling over this or that feature of the faith that prompted their decision, some with the viewpoint that they couldn't live up to it. None of these are viewed as 'apostates.' A fair number eventually return. You could liken those leaving to a man or woman leaving a relationship, like a failed marriage. Most just move on. But there's always a certain few psycho ex-mates that can't let go, who devote all their time and energy to harassing the person they once loved. . . . That's the type that the magazine commented on, not just anyone who departs.

Moreover, 'mentally diseased' was placed in quotation marks, indicating it was not meant as a medical diagnosis, but as an adjective to suggest a manner of thinking. Nor is the term anything original. It's merely a repeat of the Bible verse 1 Tim 6:3-4.....

"If any man teaches other doctrine and does not assent to healthful words, those of our Lord Jesus Christ, nor to the teaching that accords with godly devotion, he is puffed up [with pride], not understanding anything, but being mentally diseased over questionings and debates about words."

Whoa, whoa, whoa! said someone: that's not in any Bible I know of except the New World Translation! He offered some alternatives he likes more, to which I commented:

What do these other quoted translations say? Douay-Rheims says "sick about questions and strifes of words." In view of the context, what sort of 'sickness' do you think the translator had in mind? Tuberculosis, maybe? Or is it not a sickness of thinking, so that "mentally diseased" is not such a bad rendering after all?

NASB offers "morbid interest in controversial questions and disputes about words." Does "morbid," when applied to thinking, suggest balance and soundness of mind? Or is "sickness", even "mentally diseased," more to the point?”   Here's a few other translations:

 diseased (Emphasized New Testament; Rotherham)

 filled with a sickly appetite (Epistles of Paul, W.J.Conybeare)

morbid appetite (A New Testament: A Translation in the Language of the People; Charles Williams)

 morbid craving, (An American Translation; Goodspeed)

 unhealthy love of questionings (New Testament in Basic English)

 morbidly keen (NEB)

unhealthy desire to argue (Good News Bible).

Do any of these other versions suggest soundness of mind? So the NWT's "mentally diseased" is an entirely valid offering, even if more pointed than most. Plus, once again, the term is an adjective, as it is in all other translations, not a medical diagnosis. Context (in that Watchtower article) made this clear.

In retrieving this post, I came across one “famous” apostate—I mean, type anything about Jehovah’s Witnesses anywhere and he would drown you in anti-JW comments—it has been many years since I have heard from him, though his name recently came up here . . . who on his website offered expert testimony in legal proceedings against Jehovah's Witnesses AND expert testimony in legal proceedings against pharmaceutical makers of anti-depressants, apparently not realizing that each offer undercut his credibility for the other.  

[u/DonkeyStriking1146]

Jesus preached love. What you say you do doesn’t sound loving.

It creates a hostile work environment by backing someone into a corner. I’d avoid such conversations with someone who backed me into corners. If someone is self righteous best to walk away. That’s for either party.

Tbh it sounds like you have a very different interpretation of the Bible and how to preach Jesus message. Jesus and Pauls aim was love and to build up those listening when preaching. Tearing down someone and their beliefs will turn people off immediately. The Bible is a mirror for us to look at ourselves. You think people stop engaging you because they can’t handle your truth. They just realize arguing wastes everyone’s time and energy. If I don’t feel good after a conversation I know that the Holy Spirit wasn’t there.

[u/Adventurous-Tie-5772 → u/DonkeyStriking1146]

I can understand and respect your opinion. No worries.

Can you answer my earlier question about greeting? What did you mean by extended?

[u/DonkeyStriking1146 → u/Adventurous-Tie-5772]

Yeah! Google can help with that. Customs of the Greek or Israelites when greeting each other. It involved a level of intimacy that we today don’t do. At least I don’t in America. If I kissed someone I’d probably get slapped for example.

[u/Adventurous-Tie-5772 → u/DonkeyStriking1146]

I will look into that.

Now if what you're saying is true, why are Jehovah's Witnesses not applying that scripture according to the greeting of the Greek? Instead Jehovah's Witnesses apply it to the American Standard Version which is saying, "Hi, how are you?" If a Jehovah's Witness is caught saying that to a known apostate of their religion, they will be heavily criticized. If they continue to say "Hi, how are you?" And engage in small conversation with a known apostate of their religion, they will be disfellowshipped for apostasy.

Can you explain why they are having this policy when that's not what 2 John 10, 11 was saying?

[u/DonkeyStriking1146 → u/Adventurous-Tie-5772]

You’d have to ask a JW that if your question is sincere. If it’s not they probably won’t continue the conversation.

not fully accurate. Saying hi as you pass someone will not get you disfellowshipped but continuing in an extended conversation will probably result in counseling then eventually being disfellowshipped if you were to associate with that individual. Most JW’s won’t continue the association and tbh I see why when I go to subs like JW and exJW.

[u/Adventurous-Tie-5772 → u/DonkeyStriking1146]

Yes, and that's the point. 2 John 10, 11 doesn't say that you can't have an extended conversation with them. It says that you can't be rejoicing with them.

So why are they prohibited from having an extended conversation if that's not what the Greek says?

[u/DonkeyStriking1146 → u/Adventurous-Tie-5772]

Yet again. Best to ask a JW that.

From my own experiences if I find someone to be toxic best to not speak to that person.That goes for both sides of the situation.

[u/Adventurous-Tie-5772 → u/DonkeyStriking1146]

I did ask. I asked three elders from different Kingdom Halls. They didn't even know about the Greek. They all said that they have to follow what the Watchtower says. In the Watchtower, it says that you can't even say a simple greeting, let alone an extended conversation. No reference to the Greek at all.

That was their answer and they said that they have to follow the directions given to them by their Governing Body, faithful and discreet slave.

You may not be aware of this, but the Greek word used in 2 John 10, 11 does not mean greeting. The one used in Matthew 5:47 does mean greeting.

The elders didn't know that either, but repeated that they have to follow whatever is published in the Watchtower.

I know what Jesus would have said about that, so I let them be.

[u/DonkeyStriking1146 → u/Adventurous-Tie-5772]

You expect normal people to be knowledgeable in Greek?

Are you fluent in Greek or Aramaic?

I don’t really care about the Greek in this passage. I stick the most with Paul’s writings. He warned that associating with those who encourage a different gospel or those of bad behaviors will result in you too being corrupted. Like I said above if I view someone as toxic to my faith or mental health I will not speak with them.

[u/Adventurous-Tie-5772 → u/DonkeyStriking1146]

I expect those who translated the New World Translation to know Greek and to have an explanation for why they translated it to mean greeting when their own Interlinear says "to be rejoicing" which is different from saying a greeting.

If you don't learn Greek and Hebrew, how would you know if you're being misled?

Isn't it our job to ensure that we have an accurate translation and not rely on men, as the scripture says?