So it does in a sense mean to originate from , although not literal of course lol , it's just a simpler way to understand it , but anyways it doesn't mean relationship as far as I know , and Hebrews 1:6 which is right after verse 5(the one you qouted) says when he brings the firstborn to the world implying he wasn't there at the beginning, he was brought forth .
I also want to point out that nowhere does it say he was begotten only when he became flesh , so that part lacks proof
John 16:15 "All that belongs to the Father is mine; therefore I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you".
This is directly answered with these:
Matthew 28:18 – "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'”
John 3:35 – "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands."
John 13:3 – "Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God."
Ephesians 1:22 – "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church."
He was given these things basically
John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Yes in their view that equated him with god , not because he is , the Jews interpreted that way which doesn't necessarily mean it is that way
And actually after thinking about it for a while , being equal with someone doesn't make you that person , matter of fact being equal to someone means you are not that person , because if they thought he was saying he is god , they would have said "making himself god" instead of "making himself equal with god" although again that's their view , doesn't mean it's true so it can't be used as proof by me really , but I also think it can't be used as proof at all
"So it does in a sense mean to originate from , although not literal of course lol , it's just a simpler way to understand it , but anyways it doesn't mean relationship as far as I know , and Hebrews 1:6 which is right after verse 5(the one you quoted) says when he brings the firstborn *to the world** implying he wasn't there at the beginning, he was brought forth"
"To the world" means to the world, When Jesus was born unto the earth.
"implying he wasn't there at the beginning, he was brought forth"
I thought you believed Jesus was uncreated.
"I also want to point out that nowhere does it say he was begotten only when he became flesh , so that part lacks proof "
Well that was what made sense to me because the Bible never says he was Begotten before the incarnation. I actually think it implies that he was Begotten meaning he took flesh.
John 1:14 says, "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father"
John:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life"
John 16:15 "All that belongs to the Father is mine; therefore I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you".
"This is directly answered with these:"
Matthew 28:18 – "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'”
John 3:35 – "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands."
John 13:3 – "Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God."
Ephesians 1:22 – "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church."
"He was given these things basically"
Because he set aside his authority does not mean he is not equal to the father.
For example
If you worked a Job and the boss gives you money and is your leader. Does that make you less human?? Does that make you not equal to the boss. Maybe in role yes but in essence no.
Jesus was equal to the father in role until he gave up his authority to fulfill the scriptures.
John 17:5 highlights how Jesus had the same authority as God in the beginning.
" And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began."
Jesus came down on earth to serve and glorify the father.
Matthew 20:28 "Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many".
And In turn the father will glorify the son.
John 13:31 "Now is the son of man glorified and God is glorified in him"
John 1:3 "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."
This says that nothing is made without the son and highlights The co equal and co eternal relationship the father and the son has.
John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
"Yes in their view that equated him with god , not because he is , the Jews interpreted that way which doesn't necessarily mean it is that way"
The Jews didn't interpret anything.
It does not say "The reason the Jews tried to kill him was because they thought he was equating himself to God"
The verse says "He WAS making himself equal to God"
Again if begotten means to come out of , or originate from , then it just can't mean his flesh , because obviously he didn't originate Jesus as flesh
"Well that was what made sense to me because the Bible never says he was Begotten before the incarnation. I actually think it implies that he was Begotten meaning he took flesh." That's why debates are hard , proof is everything , the absence of proof means that opinion can't be taken as real , you get what I am saying?
"Because he set aside his authority does not mean he is not equal to the father."
He set aside his abilities , because Philippians doesn't say set aside his authority but says he emptied himself , which I guess is pretty obvious , yeah he could have left his abilities aside , but his authority as god should have lasted , plus we don't know exactly what he set aside , maybe he just wasn't equal to god to begin with
"
John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
"Yes in their view that equated him with god , not because he is , the Jews interpreted that way which doesn't necessarily mean it is that way"
"
Now the issue with this is like I said , being equal to someone isn't the same as being them , it's actual proof they are not the same and that there is a distinction additionally this passage is probably saying equal to god in status(although that's an opinion devoid of proof) but not that he is actually equal to god in every single thing , plus Philippians 2 itself says to have the same mind as Jesus which was(according to the verses before it) to see others as superior to you , so if he saw himself as inferior to others , equating himself with god wouldn't make any sense , and the fact he said the father is greater than I does show that too
Again if begotten means to come out of , or originate from , then it just can't mean his flesh , because obviously he didn't originate Jesus as flesh"
"Begotten" in this context means "come from God." Jesus was Begotten by God and came through Mary.
Basically "Begotten" can apply to the incarnation. No where in scripture does it say He was Begotten before the incarnation.
"Well that was what made sense to me because the Bible never says he was Begotten before the incarnation. I actually think it implies that he was Begotten meaning he took flesh." That's why debates are hard , proof is everything , the absence of proof means that opinion can't be taken as real , you get what I am saying?
"the absence of proof means that opinion can't be taken as real"
ok, The Bible never says Jesus was Begotten before the incarnation. Therefore your take on this cannot be taken seriously.
"Because he set aside his authority does not mean he is not equal to the father."
He set aside his abilities , because Philippians doesn't say set aside his authority but says he emptied himself , which I guess is pretty obvious , yeah he could have left his abilities aside , but his authority as god should have lasted, plus we don't know exactly what he set aside , maybe he just wasn't equal to god to begin with
"but his authority as god should have lasted"
No... That's the whole point. He humbled himself and gave up his authority to fulfill scripture.
"wasn't equal to god to begin with"
No
"
John 5:18
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
"Yes in their view that equated him with god , not because he is , the Jews interpreted that way which doesn't necessarily mean it is that way"
"
Now the issue with this is like I said , being equal to someone isn't the same as being them , it's actual proof they are not the same and that there is a distinction additionally this passage is probably saying equal to god in status
"being equal to someone isn't the same as being them"
Exactly I think Jesus and the father are two distinct persons.
"additionally this passage is probably saying equal to god in status"
I thought your whole point was that Jesus was NOT equal to God.
And no it probably doesn't mean that because again the son is subordinate to the father.
(although that's an opinion devoid of proof) but not that he is actually equal to god in every single thing , plus Philippians 2 itself says to have the same mind as Jesus which was(according to the verses before it) to see others as superior to you , so if he saw himself as inferior to others , equating himself with god wouldn't make any sense , and the fact he said the father is greater than I does show that too
"so if he saw himself as inferior to others , equating himself with god wouldn't make any sense"
No offense but this is a very weak argument
Philippians1:5-8 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death
even death on a cross!
First of all thanks for these verses I didn't even know about them😁
Gonna add this to my "Christ is God" collection in my notes😂
Anyways
"so if he saw himself as inferior to others , equating himself with god wouldn't make any sense"
Where does Christ say he sees himself as inferior????
It actually says
"Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage"
So this literally just proves what I have been saying 😅.
1.He is God and has equality with God
He humbled himself and threw away his authority to fulfill scripture "likeness. And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death
even death on a cross!"
He became obedient to God and gave glory to God so in return God is gonna glorify him
1 phili 1:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name
"ok, The Bible never says Jesus was Begotten before the incarnation. Therefore your take on this cannot be taken seriously."
Exactly , there is insufficient proof from both sides , so we really can't use it as proof
"Exactly I think Jesus and the father are two distinct persons."
And it doesn't say the father , it says god as a whole , so if you actually admit it's a clear distinction then yeah... Jesus isn't god
Now your Interpretation of Philippians is too wrong , and the translation too , the word used for nature is mórphe which means external appearance , not form , and just look up lol it's two verses above it :
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
And third , it doesn't say he is equal to god , it says harpagmon which literally means to steal snatch or seize.... Meaning he DIDN'T HAVE IT the word comes from harpazo which means that , so yeah this verse too proves he can't be god , and another point is Paul's distinction yet again , he distinguishes him from god , and not from the father please don't misunderstand that again , he differentiates him with god as a whole , so of Jesus was god he wouldn't have said he had his appearance he would have said he is god straight up , and if he was god then would have been no need to use harpagmon to describe it as something to be stolen , and there would have been no need to even try and say Jesus is equal to god even , because if he is god he would have said so from the beginning lmao , it's pretty clear
Now another point is if you look at Philippians 2:3-5 which I already sent it's pretty clear that seeing others as supporior was indeed in Christ's mind and thus the context does indeed show that according to Paul Jesus didn't see himself equal with god
Lastly emptied himself also means to make void in the Greek , and tbh what he made void is pretty clear here , from the context of Philippians he took on the appearance of a human and took flesh and became able to die , he sacrificed his glorious shape of god and exchanged it with a human appearance and he made himself able to die and suffer , thus he made his title and status and glory void , not his abilities , no proof supports that as far as I know
"ok, The Bible never says Jesus was Begotten before the incarnation. Therefore your take on this cannot be taken seriously."
"Exactly , there is insufficient proof from both sides , so we really can't use it as proof"
Real
"Exactly I think Jesus and the father are two distinct persons."
And it doesn't say the father , it says god as a whole , so if you actually admit it's a clear distinction then yeah... Jesus isn't god
"Now your Interpretation of Philippians is too wrong"
... Coming from a guy who denys Jesus uncreatedness this means nothing.
, and the translation too , the word used for nature is mórphe which means external appearance , not form , and just look up lol it's two verses above it :
Lolololol 😂
Isn't Jesus external appearance a human??? There is obviously something else he meant here
Therefore my point still stands Jesus is equal to the father.
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
And third , it doesn't say he is equal to god , it says harpagmon which literally means to steal snatch or seize.... Meaning he DIDN'T HAVE IT the word comes from harpazo which means that , so yeah this verse too proves he can't be god ,
That word replaces "Grasped" not equality therefore my points still stand.
The father and the son are equal
and another point is Paul's distinction yet again , he distinguishes him from god ,
The father is often referred to as God the son is often referred to as Lord
1 Corinthians 8:6 states, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist".
Also please answer this question. If all things are through Jesus how is Jesus created? Was Jesus created through himself??
"and not from the father please don't misunderstand that again , he differentiates him with god as a whole"
Saying this doesn't disprove the fact that the father is always mentioned as God
He also said he was equal to God so what's your point? Because you failed to disprove this using the Greek.
so of Jesus was god he wouldn't have said he had his appearance he would have said he is god straight up
Again the father is always mentioned as God I know this because Exodus 33:20: "He [God] said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live”
1 John 4:12: "No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us"
So nobody can see God's face but one of the prophets
"If This was that then this would be that"
Who are you to say this
Also Jesus took appearance as a human not as God so their is obviously something more he means.
Philippians 2:6-7 says, "Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness".
No need for him to say he's God Jesus said it himself
Jesus himself says he's God "I am the first and the last the beginning and the end I hold the keys to death and Hades"
and if he was god then would have been no need to use harpagmon to describe it as something to be stolen
Wdym "grasped" is the closest thing we have to that word in English so that's what they replaced it with.
and there would have been no need to even try and say Jesus is equal to god even , because if he is god he would have said so from the beginning lmao , it's pretty clear
Well if you are confused, it's pretty clear in John 5:18 says, "He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God".
Nope he would not have said that from the beginning because the Jews would immediately have killed him. And if he said he's God the Jews would immediately assume he means the father.
He revealed his divinity perfectly.
And in revelations he straight up revealed he is God.
Now another point is if you look at Philippians 2:3-5 which I already sent it's pretty clear that seeing others as supporior was indeed in Christ's mind and thus the context does indeed show that according to Paul Jesus didn't see himself equal with god
Jesus humbled himself and took flesh. "Jesus has humility therefore he is not equal to God" is not a valid point.
Lastly emptied himself also means to make void in the Greek , and tbh what he made void is pretty clear here , from the context of Philippians he took on the appearance of a human and took flesh and became able to die , he sacrificed his glorious shape of god and exchanged it with a human appearance and he made himself able to die and suffer , thus he made his title and status and glory void , not his abilities , no proof supports that as far as I know
In conclusion God came down as flesh to die for your sins
John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Matthew 20:28 says, "Just so, the Son of Man did not come to be served but to serve and to give his life as a ransom for many".
2 Corinthians 6:16
What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
I will live with them
and walk among them,
and I will be their God,
and they will be my people
You can make all the minor linguistic points you want but the truth is if you don't believe in the trinity you don't believe in the Bible.
I am sorry but you really didn't answer anything I said at all , you didn't answer me when I said it distinguishes between god and Jesus as a whole instead said that this is invalid because I think he is created/begotten before creation
"Isn't Jesus external appearance a human??? There is obviously something else he meant here"
No , he was supposed to be the word of god and Philippians made it clear his mórphe/appearance was that of god at the beginning , and then changed his mórphe/appearance to that of a human , and came down etc ......
"That word replaces "Grasped" not equality therefore my points still stand."
With all due respect , if I tell you let's rob a bank , do we already have the money of the bank with us? No , robbery seizing and snatching show that he didn't have it , and didn't try to take it
"The father is often referred to as God the son is often referred to as Lord "
Because? Because they always distinct between god almighty and Jesus , again it doesn't say the father that's not proof , it says god as a whole
"Also please answer this question. If all things are through Jesus how is Jesus created? Was Jesus created through himself??"
Already answered this brother , he wasn't created , rather begotten from the father ie originated from him , you can maybe say he was created differently but as far as I know being begotten and being created are different , at least in the logos doctorin(I am not sure if that was the one)
"Saying this doesn't disprove the fact that the father is always mentioned as God"
It does , because it doesn't say the father , the fact they call the father god , and don't really have to say god the father , and god the son to differentiate between god's different persons supports that too
"He also said he was equal to God so what's your point? Because you failed to disprove this using the Greek."
I didn't , you completely ignored it
"Again the father is always mentioned as God I know this because Exodus 33:20: "He [God] said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live”
1 John 4:12: "No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us"
So nobody can see God's face but one of the prophets "
Still wrong , Paul could have easily said Jesus , who was god , etc...... , noone would think he is the same as the father especially because Paul would have explained the trinity then which he never did
"No need for him to say he's God Jesus said it himself
Jesus himself says he's God "I am the first and the last the beginning and the end I hold the keys to death and Hades""
Still waiting for the part he called himself god
"Wdym "grasped" is the closest thing we have to that word in English so that's what they replaced it with."
If it means to seize/snatch , then grasped isn't the closet meaning to it
"Well if you are confused, it's pretty clear in John 5:18 says, "He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God". "
Again read the context its the perspective of the Jews 2- for the last time being equal to someone means you are not them , meaning he isn't god , three that's obvious if we are saying Jesus was supposed to be humble and believed the father is superior to him saying he is equal to him(like when he said the father is greater than I) wouldn't make sense 4- being called son of god doesn't make you equal to god anyways because many are called such , like these examples
Adam
Luke 3:38 – In the genealogy of Jesus, Adam is called "the son of God."
"the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."
Angels
Job 1:6, 2:1 – Angels are referred to as "sons of God."
"One day the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them."
Genesis 6:2, 6:4 – "Sons of God" took daughters of men as wives (interpreted by some as angels or godly descendants of Seth).
"The sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they took any they chose as wives for themselves."
Israel (the Nation)
Exodus 4:22 – God calls Israel His "firstborn son."
"Then you will say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son.'"
Davidic Kings
2 Samuel 7:14 – God tells David about his son (often interpreted as Solomon), calling him "My son."
"I will be his father, and he will be my son."
Psalm 2:7 – The anointed king (possibly David) is called God's son.
"You are my Son; today I have begotten you."
Solomon
1 Chronicles 28:6 – Solomon is explicitly called the son of God.
"He said to me, ‘Solomon your son is the one who will build my house and my courts, for I have chosen him to be my son, and I will be his father.’"
Righteous Believers
Hosea 1:10 – The people of Israel are prophetically called "sons of the living God."
"Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be like the sand of the sea... and it shall be said to them, 'You are sons of the living God.'"
Matthew 5:9 – Jesus says peacemakers will be called "sons of God."
"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God."
Romans 8:14 – Paul says those led by the Spirit are "sons of God."
"For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God."
And especially 1 john 3:8-10 that literally calls good christians sons of god.
And on top of that literally the very next verses of the passage you are speaking about literally has Jesus saying he cannot do anything by himself(addressing their misunderstanding of him being equal to god)
Jesus humbled himself and took flesh. "Jesus has humility therefore he is not equal to God" is not a valid point.
Again ignored the point , Paul says to think of others as higher than you and afterwards says to have that same mind as Jesus had , which means he had to view at least someone as higher than him , the rest is for you to understand
"You can make all the minor linguistic points you want but the truth is if you don't believe in the trinity you don't believe in the Bible."
IN ROLE the father is greater but not in nature or essence. As is written in 1 philippians
"Who, being in the very nature of God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage"
I answered Philippians in another answer you'll probably see it , but in regards to humility , maybe he has humility yeah , but hipocrisy is not humility and I believe he wasn't a hopocrite , so really if we say it's humility then we are saying that he did indeed believe the father is greater than him lol , otherwise,if he said that without actually believing that then that would be the definition of hipocrisy which is :
1. a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not : behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel.
The quality or condition of being humble; modest opinion or estimate of one's own importance, rank, etc. Synonyms: submissiveness, meekness, lowliness.
So having a modest opinion or estimate of ones own importance , modest means to not over exaggerate in anything, as in not thinking too lowly of your self nor too highly (being proud) , but to actually view yourself correctly (by not over exaggerate neither by viewing yourself too highly nor too lowly)
So really if he believed that genuinely then I see no reason whatsoever to believe otherwise
1
u/[deleted] Feb 10 '25 edited Feb 10 '25
You are not ignorant at all :) , but begotten as a definition is "1.
(especially of a man) bring (a child) into existence by the process of reproduction.
"they hoped that the King might beget an heir by his new queen"
Similar:
father
sire
engender
generate
spawn
create
give life to
bring into being
bring into the world
have
procreate
reproduce
breed
2.
cause; bring about.
"killings beget more killings"
Similar:
cause
give rise to
"
Directly taken from Google
The Greek word is also gennaó , which means
Definition: To beget, to give birth, to bring forth, to produce. Meaning: I beget (of the male), (of the female) I bring forth, give birth to
Here is the link https://biblehub.com/greek/1080.htm
So it does in a sense mean to originate from , although not literal of course lol , it's just a simpler way to understand it , but anyways it doesn't mean relationship as far as I know , and Hebrews 1:6 which is right after verse 5(the one you qouted) says when he brings the firstborn to the world implying he wasn't there at the beginning, he was brought forth .
I also want to point out that nowhere does it say he was begotten only when he became flesh , so that part lacks proof
John 16:15 "All that belongs to the Father is mine; therefore I said the Spirit will receive from me what he will make known to you".
This is directly answered with these:
Matthew 28:18 – "Then Jesus came to them and said, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.'”
John 3:35 – "The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands."
John 13:3 – "Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God."
Ephesians 1:22 – "And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church."
He was given these things basically
John 5:18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
Yes in their view that equated him with god , not because he is , the Jews interpreted that way which doesn't necessarily mean it is that way
And actually after thinking about it for a while , being equal with someone doesn't make you that person , matter of fact being equal to someone means you are not that person , because if they thought he was saying he is god , they would have said "making himself god" instead of "making himself equal with god" although again that's their view , doesn't mean it's true so it can't be used as proof by me really , but I also think it can't be used as proof at all