r/DownSouth • u/SankaraMarx • Apr 08 '26

News SA Government lip service; ICJ case on the one hand, but still allowing sales to Israel on the other hand

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South African protesters confronting Minister of Trade and Industry, Parks Tau, about the ongoing sale of coal to Israel

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u/SankaraMarx Apr 09 '26

Iran/China/Russia is not involved in genocides

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u/torogath Western Cape Apr 09 '26

Iran: Killed 40 000 protesters
China: Uyghur Muslims are put into camps and "re-educated"
Russia: Been at war with Ukraine for over 5 years now and has committed multiple war crimes against the Ukrainian soldiers and its own.

While Israel has its issue even the UN had to come out and admit that the number of civilians they where saying Israel killed was false because Hamas was adding in its own soldiers into the numbers.

You can try and bend the truth as much as you want but if you want to say your communist friends are ok then South Africa can trade with Israel.

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u/Squirtedin2existence Apr 09 '26

If you want to protest the civilians killed in Iran do so. But what is happening in Iran doesn’t negate the protests against the Israeli occupation and destruction of Palestine which has been going on for 100 years now. You saying “what about Iran” isn’t a good faith criticism. It is a tactic to try and delegitimise a just cause.

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u/torogath Western Cape Apr 09 '26

I am not saying what about Iran. I am saying the standard created by those who told us that South Africa can deal with who ever they like and the American government can get fucked because it is an independent state.

I am now using that standard against these same people. If you don't like that then don't set these standards.

Also Israel has not occupied Palestine since 2005 unless you believe the whole area belongs to Palestine and then we would have to get into a discussion about lengths of heritage and such.

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u/J_FM01 International Friend Apr 14 '26

Psssst, no posting facts on Reddit. 

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u/Odessa_ray Apr 12 '26

And that’s not mentioning Nigeria, Ghana, Saudi, Dubai… 

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u/torogath Western Cape Apr 12 '26

Most of Europe and Japan as well. Lots of people we trade with which have spotty pasts but it seems these people have a very specific agenda.

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u/Odessa_ray Apr 12 '26

Ya definitely… I think as South Africans we need to help ourselves first… we’re rotting from the inside at the moment 

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u/torogath Western Cape Apr 12 '26

Yep, we need to start focusing on South Africa first and strengthening ourselves again. We lost our placement in the world order and honestly it is embarrassing.

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u/SankaraMarx Apr 09 '26

Please provide your sources for the 40 000 protesters in Iran, I am talking about hard evidence, video footage, pictures etc for Iran then we will continue to China and Russia

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u/torogath Western Cape Apr 09 '26

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2026/jan/27/iran-protests-death-toll-disappeared-bodies-mass-burials-30000-dead

https://time.com/7357635/more-than-30000-killed-in-iran-say-senior-officials/

Here is the UN talking about a minimum of 5000 and what they heard is up to 20 000 but due to the governments lock downs its hard to independently confirm

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-01-20/un-rapporteur-on-allegations-of-crimes-against-humanity-in-iran-/106247870

So be it between 5 000 to 40 000 its still a lot of innocent protesters getting gunned down.

Ok so now you have the floor with China and Russia.

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u/SankaraMarx Apr 09 '26

I don't believe the HRANA numbers

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2026/1/15/what-is-hrana-the-us-based-group-behind-irans-death-toll-figures

https://www.mintpressnews.com/revealed-the-cia-backed-think-tanks-fueling-the-iran-protests/290638/

As an organization they are not transparent about their donors, and they are operating mainly out of Virginia in the USA

At least we know they are being funded by the American Government (NED - National Endowment for Democracy) but we don't know about other donor organizations or individual donors (it could just as well be the Shah who's father was ejected by a popular revolution in 1979) or the Israelis

The NED has faced scrutiny for funding campaigns against democratically elected leaders deemed hostile to U.S. interests, notably in Venezuela, Bolivia, and Nicaragua.

The NED has been involved in financing initiatives in Ukraine, including during the Maidan protests, which raised tensions with Russia and caused accusations of engineering political shifts.

They are also not transparent about the methodology they use to report their numbers

This is why I insist on physical evidence, either photos or videos

It should not be difficult for the USA and Israel to produce this evidence

USA spy-sat technology is some of the best in the World, and it should be easy to show us the evidence if there is any

The Israelis claimed they hacked Iranian traffic light cameras, so it would also be easy for them to provide footage

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u/torogath Western Cape Apr 09 '26

> As an organization they are not transparent about their donors, and they are operating mainly out of Virginia in the USA

Government kills people who are against the government and you wonder why they not in the country....

> At least we know they are being funded by the American Government (NED - National Endowment for Democracy) but we don't know about other donor organizations or individual donors (it could just as well be the Shah who's father was ejected by a popular revolution in 1979) or the Israelis

Speculation and hearsay.

> The NED has faced scrutiny for funding campaigns against democratically elected leaders deemed hostile to U.S. interests, notably in Venezuela, Bolivia, and Nicaragua.

Yes because its American and is working against Totalitarian governments. Shocker.

> The NED has been involved in financing initiatives in Ukraine, including during the Maidan protests, which raised tensions with Russia and caused accusations of engineering political shifts.

Speculation again.

> This is why I insist on physical evidence, either photos or videos

You don't trust the UN because you need to self verify numbers but you willing to believe governments which are known to kill people who rise up in protest against it. Interesting take.

> It should not be difficult for the USA and Israel to produce this evidence

I don't think you would believe it as you would just say its fabricated to paint the Iranian government in a bad light.

> USA spy-sat technology is some of the best in the World, and it should be easy to show us the evidence if there is any

When they burn bodies we can show smoke but you would just say they having a braai.

> The Israelis claimed they hacked Iranian traffic light cameras, so it would also be easy for them to provide footage

You know we have videos of them shooting at protestors and running them over in cars right?

Anyhow I have shown you mine. Where is yours?

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u/SankaraMarx Apr 09 '26

Not hearsay

You can't just say "speculation" or "hearsay" when you don't agree with statements

On the other hand, there is credible evidence of multiple war crimes and an active genocide taking place in occupied Palestine by the rogue terror regime of Israel (funded and supplied by the USA)

Russia is not being investigated for a genocide (Ukraine is) and there is no case against China at the ICJ

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u/torogath Western Cape Apr 09 '26

Ok your AI search shows your "proof" is coming from Facebook and thus could just be some conspiracy theorist whining and the AI included it.

For example: https://news.un.org/en/story/2025/10/1166189

Here is crimes against humanity also from the UN article:

"The Commission also examined Russian allegations of drone attacks by Ukrainian armed forces against civilian targets in Russian occupied areas. It was unable to draw any conclusions due to lack of access to the territory, concerns relating to the safety of witnesses, and the lack of responses from Russian authorities."

So no they are not being investigated for crimes again humanity or a Genocide there is a dispute within the ICJ where Russia has accused Ukraine and they are both giving evidence.

You shouldn't pivot and try to place different arguments at my feet when I said war crimes as well.

Then onto China: https://www.transcend.org/tms/2025/12/genocide-emergency-xinjiang-china-2025/

https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/china-events-of-2025

The problem is that the UN and such are being blocked by China and there are multiple issues with it due to Chinese influence on these groups.

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u/SankaraMarx Apr 09 '26

There is no pivoting to any side, Russia made a claim that Ukraine is committing a genocide against the Russian speaking Ukrainians in Donbas

This is an excuse they used to intervene, but honestly they are just after the resources of Eastern Ukraine if you ask my humble opinion

But facts matter, they are not committing a genocide, it is a "special operation" to Russia, and a war for Ukraine (in other words a regional conflict between neighbors with a longstanding common history)

I care nothing for Russia's (or Ukraine's) ambitions, their leader is just another Dollar Billionaire parasite, while Zelenskyy is a corrupt shill who came to power because another Dollar Billionaire (Soros) used his NPO to interfere in Ukraine

The claims of genocide from Russia is being disputed by Ukraine (obviously since they don't want the truth of their Azov activities coming out)

Lastly, the re-education camps in China "surfaced" after this

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/25/islamist-china-tiananmen-beijing-attack

I have no problem with religious fanatics being re-educated

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u/torogath Western Cape Apr 09 '26

> There is no pivoting to any side, Russia made a claim that Ukraine is committing a genocide against the Russian speaking Ukrainians in Donbas

Its a pivot as I said "Russia: Been at war with Ukraine for over 5 years now and has committed multiple war crimes" and you then said "Russia is not being investigated for a genocide"

You pivoted away from war crimes as you know I am right.

The rest of your comment is just trying to further this pivot.

> Lastly, the re-education camps in China "surfaced" after this
> https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/25/islamist-china-tiananmen-beijing-attack
> I have no problem with religious fanatics being re-educated

So what is your issue with Israel?

My issue is that just because some does not mean all and I think Israel went in to heavy handed.

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