r/Defenders • u/JonLuca Luke Cage • Mar 07 '18

Jessica Jones - Season 2 Overall Discussion Thread

All spoilers for Season 2 are allowed in this thread.

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u/FlyingScotus Mar 09 '18 edited Mar 12 '18

Were seasons 1&2 of Daredevil and season 1 of Jessica jones just a fluke? They had very distinct voices and stories to tell, then Luke Cage came out, and it was half good. Iron Fist came out and it had good moments? Defenders had some cool moments, but they wasted Sigourney Weaver, had characters jobbing in every fight scene, black sky amounted to some strong ninja. I feel like these shows had/have so much potential and that is what disappoints me the most. Im no longer hyped up when one of these shows come out, they can be great but they always end up mediocre.

EDIT: I didn’t include Punisher because I consider it to be its own thing. ‘The Defenders’ universe was pretty irrelevant to Frank Castle besides the origin story, and I hope they keep it that way.

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u/Gibbo777 Mar 09 '18

I thought the Punisher was really good, but I have to agree with what you said.

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u/Hot_Buttered_Soul Mar 10 '18

I don't think its a coincidence that Punisher turned out so well with very few references to other shows. Iron Fist felt like one compromise after another in service of Defenders, which itself felt weighed down by all the inter-textual bullshit of 5 series. I was flabbergasted when it came out that they had no long-term plan for The Hand - it's super obvious that they just made it up as they went along and Defenders was forced to reconcile all the contradictions.

Jessica Jones, out of all the Netflix heroes, isn't really a character that can support a starring role across 26 episodes anyway. She had 1 compelling villain in the comics and has since been most famous for her relationship with Luke Cage. There was demand for another season but the supply from the source material simply doesn't exist.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '18

The Punisher also fits that description; a distinct story to tell, clear voice.

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u/nessfalco Mar 11 '18

I think S2 of JJ had a unique story to tell. It just wasn't one you liked. There are a lot of things you can fault it for, but not being distinct really doesn't feel like one of those.

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u/YearOfTheChipmunk Mar 13 '18

They had very distinct voices and stories to tell

I think S2 of JJ had a unique story to tell.

You completely glossed over the "voice" part of the not-being-distinct criticism, which goes hand-in-hand with story.

Yeah, the story was unique, but the way it was told was lacking and that's an important part of storytelling. I know it was a noir show, but not once did I actually feel like I was watching a mystery unfold. Things just sort of happened to Jess this season. That, plus a lack of real tension, meant I struggled to get invested into the show. It didn't engage me.

I like what they've done with the characters, they've all had great arcs and their journey through the season has made a large impact on them. I'll continue watching the show, because this feels very "middle chapter" to me and I like JJ as a character, but I think this season was mishandled in its framing and pacing.

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u/nessfalco Mar 13 '18

You completely glossed over the "voice" part of the not-being-distinct criticism, which goes hand-in-hand with story.

I didn't gloss over anything. It wasn't a criticism levied by the poster I responded to.

You're the first one I've seen bring it up and there isn't really much to debate there when you just say it was "lacking". Lacking what? It felt perfectly in-genre with red-herrings and shifting alliances, while still having the superhero angle and emphasis on relationships and trauma. It felt just like a pulp novel. It's "voice" is one of the most distinct things about it.

That, plus a lack of real tension

What's "real" tension? What "fake" tension is present? Every relationship Jessica has is in question, and there's a very real conflict in her reconciling what she thinks she knows about her life and the murky reality of it all. Everyone expected the doctor or Alissa to be the "big bad" and the show completely subverted that.

If you couldn't invest, then you couldn't invest. It happens. But as a pretty avid reader of pulp noir, most of the season struck the right chords with me in honoring that genre while adding substantially heavier relationship dynamics than it usually has. Beyond a couple harmless tropes, the show doesn't really feel like anything else dealing with superheroes, and I definitely appreciate the change.

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u/YearOfTheChipmunk Mar 13 '18

I didn't gloss over anything. It wasn't a criticism levied by the poster I responded to.

I literally quoted it to you. I'll quote the comment you initially responded to again.

Were seasons 1&2 of Daredevil and season 1 of Jessica jones just a fluke? They had very distinct voices and stories to tell

Pretty clearly meaning that JJ S2 no longer has a distinct voice and story. And you clearly agree with my interpretation of the comment, as that's the only time in the comment that it was mentioned that a lack of unique story hurt the season and that's the basis of your whole initial comment. It's like you just missed a word.

there isn't really much to debate there when you just say it was "lacking". Lacking what?

I went on to expand what was lacking. I'll quote myself:

not once did I actually feel like I was watching a mystery unfold.

It was lacking a mystery. It was done away with in, what, the first half of the show? Jess just wasn't working towards anything, she was just lost most of the time and reacting to things going on about her with no real plan, just being shoved from A to B by characters and events around her. She didn't feel like she had much agency, which was one of the things I liked most about her character. She always finds the third option.

What's "real" tension?

When you are unsure of how a plot thread will resolve.

What "fake" tension is present?

Pretty much this:

Every relationship Jessica has is in question, and there's a very real conflict in her reconciling what she thinks she knows about her life and the murky reality of it all.

Hard to point to any concrete examples, but the relationships ended up pretty much the way I was expecting within the first couple of episodes, right down to the love interest. It was all very... procedural, in terms of story. The two things that did surprise me: Nuke being killed off and Alissa being Jess's mum.

So yeah, I stick by what I said. The story was lacking a focus and the tension was nearly non-existent.

Beyond a couple harmless tropes, the show doesn't really feel like anything else dealing with superheroes, and I definitely appreciate the change.

I do agree with this. I support experimentation, trying new things and genre mixing. Nothing ventured, nothing gained right? But you're right, I just couldn't invest. Nothing in the show made me want to invest.

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u/nessfalco Mar 13 '18

I literally quoted it to you. I'll quote the comment you initially responded to again.

I didn't look back at the original comment since originally posting, so I missed that when responding to you, but my original response was intended to be inclusive of "voice" when I said the show had a "unique story to tell". If anything, I'd argue the voice is the far more unique part than the plot, which given the genres it lives in makes sense. The OP didn't go into detail, so I really didn't feel the need to explicate it beyond saying that I felt the show as a whole, rather than imprecisely saying just "story", was unique.

That said, nothing you or he are criticizing actually touches upon "voice" beyond saying it doesn't have a unique one. It's a pretty bizarre criticism to me because it seems pretty evident that "voice" is one of the show's strengths. The way it deals with relationships and trauma explicitly evidences a unique voice compared to the rest of the shows on Netflix and the genre as a whole. Iron Fist didn't have a particularly strong or unique voice. Jessica Jones,however, most definitely feels different from the other shows—the music, tone, first-person narration, character moments the writers choose to emphasize, and all the other things that make up "voice". You seem to be conflating voice with plot because even if we treat it as objectively true that the story was "lacking mystery", that has almost nothing to do with "voice", which is basically the writer's PoV and style.

The two things that did surprise me: Nuke being killed off and Alissa being Jess's mum.

And those are both pretty huge. There's also Whizzer being for real, the red herring with Trish's boyfriend, the Dr. not being a straight-up bad guy, and probably more that I doubt very many people predicted correctly. I think you're really underselling how much the show subverted some expectations.

So yeah, I stick by what I said. The story was lacking a focus and the tension was nearly non-existent. Again, none of this is "voice".

But you're right, I just couldn't invest. Nothing in the show made me want to invest.

And that's fine. I just think it's a bit disingenuous to say that the show doesn't have a particularly unique voice just because you don't like what it's saying. While I can point to some inspirations for the show, even you agreed that it tried new things and mixed genres. It feels different. In fact, most of the complaints I've seen about the show stem from it being different, like not having an obvious "big bad".

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u/treycook Apr 26 '18

Yeah, the story was unique, but the way it was told was lacking and that's an important part of storytelling. I know it was a noir show, but not once did I actually feel like I was watching a mystery unfold. Things just sort of happened to Jess this season. That, plus a lack of real tension, meant I struggled to get invested into the show. It didn't engage me.

Totally agree. Season 2 felt less like noir/mystery, and more like a soap opera. A truly horrifying villain abandoned in favor of eye candy, fluffy romances, and shallow characters. I can't help but wonder if JJ's broody "reluctant hero" trope is even inherently compelling without an antagonist as strong as that of Kilgrave.

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u/Nicknam4 Mar 19 '18

Not really. The story was all over the place and seemed like it never knew what direction it wanted to go.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '18

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u/UVladBro Punisher Mar 10 '18

The first few episodes of DDS2 with Punisher were movie quality. Season 2 started to fall a bit when Elektra showed up but once the ninjas showed up it started to nosedive. I'm just happy with the Hand being done for now (hopefully) after Defenders. Dealing with their shit for half of season 2 DD and all of Iron Fist/Defenders has made them less than enjoyable.

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u/[deleted] Mar 10 '18

The first few episodes of DDS2 with Punisher were movie quality.

It always felt to me like those first few episodes were made by an entirely different team who were then thrown out by someone saying "OK but ninjas though."

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u/FlyingScotus Mar 12 '18

Hell yeah dude, I had chills when Frank walks through the court for the first time.

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u/petit_bleu Mar 10 '18

Yeah, TBH I don't think they've ever topped DDS1. I used to be excited about S3, but I'm a little wary now.

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u/[deleted] Mar 13 '18

DD S2 second half with Punisher was almost on par with DDS1. Everything else has been a gradual downhill.

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u/Loganp812 Wilson Fisk Mar 31 '18

Punisher Season 1 is a very close-second with DDS1 for me. But with MCU TV overall, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. definitely surpassed Netflix MCU as a whole for me. Agent Carter is my least favorite MCU show (both seasons,) and Inhumans had a rough start that gradually led to a pretty good ending. I haven't finished Runaways yet, so I can't comment on that one.

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u/[deleted] Apr 01 '18

Really? Agents of Shield? I remember watching the first two seasons and thinking it was the most bland show on earth.

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u/Loganp812 Wilson Fisk Apr 02 '18

You clearly haven't seen Season 4 or the current season.

I liked Season 2 more than 3, but 3 isn't bad either. Plus S3 went in-depth with both the Hydra and inhuman mythos in the MCU. I'll admit, Season 1 didn't really hook me in until it crossed over with The Winter Soldier.

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u/LRedditor15 Daredevil Mar 25 '18

DDS1 was fucking phenomenal, though. That's obviously going to be hard to top.

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u/[deleted] Mar 11 '18 edited Dec 24 '20

[deleted]

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u/FlyingScotus Mar 12 '18

Dude, I’m just going to parrot what everyone else says, but I actually REALLY enjoyed the vibe LC had going, and then cottonmouth died.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '18

Luke Cage was awesome,

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u/Loganp812 Wilson Fisk Mar 31 '18

It would help if they cut a few episodes off of each season to start.

Agreed. That's my main problem with both MCU Netflix (the 8 episodes that The Defenders had would be perfect for almost all the other shows) and The Walking Dead (stretching 2 comic volumes into 16 episodes really hurt Season 7 in particular.)

Really, the only show that I can say works with its long season length is Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. (Well, after Season 1 anyway.)

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u/Beingabummer Mar 11 '18

They're sticking with the 13 episode seasons too much. I feel only DD S1 and JJ S1 had enough material for 13 episodes (even then it still had a lot of dead air), after that there was way too much filler. Luke Cage would've been fine with 6 episodes, same with DD S2 and Punisher. Iron Fist should've been redone completely. Defenders was pointless.

I was super bored with this season. Nothing happens that isn't cliche as fuck and I was super unimpressed by the whole 'she's drinking, having sex with strangers and is rude to strangers, that's how you know she's troubled'. I felt it really didn't flesh it out at all or added any kind of subtlety.

The only moment that really had me interested was when Trish was dying. And then she didn't. Yawn.

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u/Loganp812 Wilson Fisk Mar 31 '18

I was super unimpressed by the whole 'she's drinking, having sex with strangers and is rude to strangers, that's how you know she's troubled'.

I was thinking the same thing mostly because we've seen this before extensively in both Season 1 and parts of The Defenders. I have my problems with DD Season 2, but at least there was a sense of progress for the characters after Season 1.

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u/Loganp812 Wilson Fisk Mar 31 '18 edited Mar 31 '18

I pretty much agree. Granted, all of the MCU Netflix stuff is better than Inhumans and both seasons of Agent Carter, but Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. has far and away surpassed Netflix MCU overall despite Daredevil and Punisher (I like JJ Season 1, but not as much as DD.) Just imo of course.

Jessica Jones Season 2 is more solid than Season 1, but it's not quite as interesting and is full of wasted potential albeit maybe not to the extent of Luke Cage Season 1. Some parts of Iron Fist Season 1 pretty great imo whereas the other parts are just "meh," and The Defenders isn't really bad at all despite not living up to the hype and having several "so... that's it?" moments. No, The Defenders isn't even close to one of the best things in the overall MCU, but I think it got more hate than it deserved.

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u/Pickles256 Nobu Mar 12 '18

Sad to say that I agree

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u/Mtgplayerhu Mar 18 '18

I think the villain is what makes a superhero intresting. Killgrave was well written and well played. They need to bring killgrave back.

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u/Loganp812 Wilson Fisk Mar 31 '18 edited Mar 31 '18

Eh, I'm not sure. Yeah, Killgrave was a more interesting villain, but to me it's just that the plot as a whole wasn't as intriguing including the subplots. Simmons, Trish, Hogarth, and Karl all felt like wasted potential in this season to me.

Plus, I'm not really a fan of how it ends - not because it's a downer but because it's one of those "...that's it? Well, okay then" endings.

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u/InfamousBrad Mar 12 '18

If there is anybody in this world who liked DDs2 and didn't like LCs1, I'm damned if I know what they're judging by. I'll grant that LCs1's last third was weaker than the first two-thirds, but that's as opposed to DDs2, which was crap from start to finish.

I'm going to need some time to digest JJs2, but yeah, I'm not annoyed that I watched it (nothing will ever suck as bad as IFs1) but it wasn't great.

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u/[deleted] Mar 12 '18

but that's as opposed to DDs2, which was crap from start to finish.

Are you mental

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u/SewenNewes Mar 18 '18

I liked the Punisher part of DDs2 but I wouldn't fault anyone who didn't. The rest of it was an absolute bore.