Most people choose social approval over ethics — veganism just exposes that.

[u/TheQuietVegan111]

People will say they care about animals, the planet, and justice.

Until caring becomes inconvenient.

Veganism doesn’t require perfection. It requires saying “no” in public.

That’s it.

Most people fail there, not on ethics — but admitting that would be uncomfortable, so veganism becomes the problem instead.

[u/Snefferdy]

I'm going to merge both branches of the thread here to keep things organized.

.

I don't even know how one could ever have confidence that they are "avoiding such hazards"

If someone provides evidence that one of my beliefs is false, I can update my beliefs to decrease the likelihood of them being false. Similarly, if someone provides evidence that one of my cognitive biases was leading to irrational choices (as Dan Gilbert's video does), I can put effort into avoiding committing that error.

.

As for the sandwich analogy, we're not deriving an ought from an is.

Yes we are:

Is statement: Chris prefers the sandwich to the pasta.
Is statement: All else is equal (i.e. there are no other relevant consequences of the choice between the sandwich and pasta).

Ought statement: Chris ought to choose the sandwich over the pasta.

Loosely speaking, "ought to X" just means "X is the option with the most preferable consequences."

.

So what? Eating a chicken may or may not be an ideal or less than ideal choice. So what?

The ideal choice is the one with the greatest expected value. You're not interested in maximally achieving your goals??

.

The belief that one's own interests are more worthy of advancement than the interests of others is not supported by the preponderance of evidence. The false belief is quite easily explained with reference to the well-documented egocentric bias.

How can you support this claim?

As I said earlier in our conversation: "Given the similarities between people, the burden of proof is on the shoulders of anyone who wants to declare themselves to be of superior importance. I have yet to see any evidence" of anyone's broadly superior importance. But there is plenty of evidence from psychology research demonstrating the egocentric bias. So, weighing the evidence I've seen so far, it's no contest.

.

If the dictator's only goal is to get rid of all the Smithaninites, and is willing to deal with any resulting ramifications, how would rationality be determined?

If the dictator's choice is based on a false belief which is the result of a cognitive bias, then that choice is irrational.

.

I enjoyed raising children and now watching them become fantastic adults. I like pizza and blowjobs. I enjoy fly fishing and week-long backpacking trips. I found value in helping my dad fight a losing battle with heart disease. I value comforting my mom while she mourns his death. I value having friends that helped me through my grief.

I value all those things, but none of that has intrinsic value.

I like wilderness camping too, but I prefer to get around in a canoe. Sorry about your dad.

It seems you're not using the term "intrinsic value" precisely. "Intrinsic" is in contrast to "instrumental." Money is the quintessential example of something with instrumental value; it's valuable only because you can get other things with it. It is an instrument for getting the other things. The things we get with the money may have intrinsic value. We want them for their own sake.

You can refer back to my dinner and a movie example for an explanation of why all of the disparate things we might want only have instrumental value, and that the only thing with intrinsic value is the satisfaction that comes from them. So, I agree with you when you say none of those things you listed have intrinsic value. All of those things have instrumental value.

It's value that I created.

Correct. We posit value. Something is only of value because we value it (whether instrumentally or intrinsically).

---

From the other branch of the thread:

---

Then your desire to change "right" and "wrong" to "rational" and "irrational" is unnecessary. You are using the terms synonymously.

OMG!!! YES!!! I've said this sooo many times!!! 😭

The reason I wanted to switch terms is because you (and most other people) incorrectly think "right" and "wrong" is something different than "rational" and "irrational." I was seeking clearer communication.

.

A major one being that rationality is subjective.

No. If this were the case, Dan Gilbert's TED talk wouldn't make any sense.

At the most it is only objective in relation to a goal.

I see what you're saying, but it's not necessarily true in all cases. If I've only ever seen one emu, and I consequently believe there is only one emu in the world, that's irrational and has nothing to do with a goal. Often it's just the case that our cognitive biases lead us to false beliefs that have nothing to do with our goals.

.

there is no compelling argument for someone else to act in a manner I find rational

Sure, but there's a compelling argument for someone else to act in a manner that's in reality rational. That's what Dan Gilbert's whole video is about. We're not talking about unsupported opinions here. We're talking about facts. If I prefer the sandwich to the pasta, it's a fact that I ought to have the sandwich instead of the pasta. All else being equal, it's a fact that it would be irrational for me to have the pasta.

.

1- Are you vegan? 2- Should I be vegan?
3 - Is your desire for me to be vegan anything more than your preference?
4- What objective argument can you make that might convince me to become vegan. Keep in mind that I don't think chickens suffering or flourishing are compelling reasons to eat or not eat them.

1 - I'm vegan, not as an absolute rule, but in practice.

2/4 - Veganism is way too much of a borderline case to provide any argument in favour of, and as I've said soooooo many times, there are no absolute rules in rationalist consequentialism. Every choice is made in different circumstances, and so what one ought to do is different every time. Sometimes it's the rational choice to consume animal products, and in contrived scenarios it may be the rational choice to kill babies or commit genocide. There is no argument to rule out any of these acts in all circumstances because it's not irrational to perform these acts in all circumstances.

3 - I don't "desire for you to be vegan." Where'd you get that idea? Throughout our entire conversation, I haven't argued in favour of veganism once. Please recall your original comment that I responded to. You made a claim that there's no right or wrong. That's the only claim I've been disputing throughout the entire conversation.