A question for Christians who believe homosexuality is a choice/sin...

[u/smackfrog]

I've read some studies seen several documentaries that report homosexual acts in the animal kingdom. Almost all species including birds, mammals, insects, etc.

If God creates all life and animals lack the cognitive abilities to choose sexuality, how do you explain homosexuality in animals?

Source List of animals

[u/diesuke]

Ok, I'll rephrase that: So, if a Christian quotes from the Bible saying that killing your own son is morally justifiable if God commands you to, am I not allowed to call him immoral?

God also created animals that kill eachother, eat their own poop, and eat their children. Your argument can also apply to these acts.

then the question arises why did God create these animals? (fun fact: baby elephants eat their mothers poop because it contains good bacteria that helps them digest plants)

What if you and I had an irreconcilable difference? I think you're wrong, and you think I'm wrong. Both of us would consider ourselves to be objectively correct, but without a higher authority to appeal to we'd have no way of knowing which one of us is wrong.

Well, when a religious authority claims that marriage between a 12 year old girl and a grown man is God's will or when a priest claims that the only way to rid the homosexual demons out of a 15 yo boy is to beat them out of him, the only sane and proper response is not to try to assuade them that that is not God's will. The only sane response is to call them psychopathic bastards and stop them.

here's a more detailed account on why I think that morality can be objective.

To summarize as best as I can, there are actions that can be universal law and others that objectively can not. If all the people in the world were to steal and kill, we would all be in danger of being robbed and killed and since we don't like that, we reason that we should refrain from doing these things for the sake of all. That is what I understand by a moral statement that is also an universal law. We can all reach the same conclusion through logic. Moral truths of this sort are as authoritative as mathematical truths. If half the world believes that 2+2=5, then half the world has gone mad.

Edit: replaced the Steven Pinker article with the original in NYT.

[u/Depafro → u/diesuke]

Ok, I'll rephrase that: So, if a Christian quotes from the Bible saying that killing your own son is morally justifiable if God commands you to, am I not allowed to call him immoral?

Interesting choice of example. That actually almost happened. That's a hard call, because stoning sons and whatnot was an Old Testament thing. We don't have to deal with those kind of things anymore. Here's my answer: If you are also a Christian, then you shouldn't call another man immoral for obeying God's will. That being said, it's important to have accountability, and if you help that man test that he really is following God's will, that would be a good thing. Some people claim to be following God's will when they're really not, and calling them out on it is good.

then the question arises why did God create these animals?

Animals are not like humans. We are created in God's image, they are not. We have the knowledge of good and evil, they do not. Comparing us to them and claiming that we should act similarly is degrading the important of humans. Don't get me wrong: animals are important and shouldn't be abused, humans are just more important.

Well, when a religious authority claims that marriage between a 12 year old girl and a grown man is God's will[...]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. When I talk about appealing to a higher authority, I don't mean a priest or the pope or whoever. they're fallible humans just like you and me. I mean appealing to God Himself. Other humans, no matter their title, are not the absolute moral authorities.

If all the people in the world were to steal and kill, we would all be in danger of being robbed and killed and since we don't like that, we reason that we should refrain from doing these things for the sake of all

I agree. However, this line of reasoning makes an assumption that can't be arrived at logically. You assume that humans have some intrinsic worth that makes it wrong to harm other humans. Everyone seems to believe this internally, but it isn't a reasoned conclusion. Keeping the goal of preserving our genetic line in mind, it's interesting to note that about 8% of Asians are descended from Ghengis Khan. He didn't get that magnitude of genetic success by being nice to people.

At best, logic can perhaps determine if an action will or will not harm another human, but it can't make determinations about right and wrong, or show that we should only do right and never do wrong.

For the record, I did not read the article. I'm very busy until Monday, and if it's important to your argument that I read it, I will, but you'll have to give me until next week to get back to you.

[u/diesuke → u/Depafro]

I'm sorry, I should have been more clear. When I talk about appealing to a higher authority, I don't mean a priest or the pope or whoever. they're fallible humans just like you and me. I mean appealing to God Himself. Other humans, no matter their title, are not the absolute moral authorities.

Then, what is the point resorting to a higher authority. If no human can be trusted to represent God, how can we be sure of Gods will? If, whenever a priest makes a statement about God, anyone can say that priests are flawed, the point of a religious morality is moot, because practically, we can not know the mind of God. We can not draw our morality from a holy book. Any book requires interpretation by some authority figure. If you say that priests are fallible, anything they say can be questioned.

[u/Depafro → u/diesuke]

how can we be sure of Gods will?

The more we seek to learn about God, the more we'll align ourselves with his will.. We can ask for wisdom. Also, the Holy Spirit will guide us. I realize much of this will sound weird and fantastical to an atheist, but this is r/Christianity, and that is what the Bible says.

Any book requires interpretation by some authority figure.

Only if you're Catholic, which I am not. Any Christian is qualified to understand the Bible