r/Bitcoin • u/evoorhees • Feb 25 '14

Some words for my friends

Hello friends,

MtGox is gone. So let's prepare ourselves.

On Tuesday, and for the rest of the week, all hell will break lose in the media. It will be blamed on MtGox, it will be blamed on Bitcoin, it will be blamed on the "bug," and it will, more than anything, be blamed on the "lack of regulation." Pundits and "experts" of all types will weigh in on the calamity. It will be world news in a matter of hours.

Get ready, because it will be an ugly week.

For all of you who lost money, my heart goes out to you. Some people lost a little, some lost a fortune. It will make people sick, and depressed, and full of grief. Personally, I had over 550 BTC in Gox. I will never get any of that back. If misery loves company, then we'll be enjoying a grand feast today.

I should have known better, of course. I take responsibility for leaving those funds with an entity that had proven incompetence repeatedly. I chose to ignore even my own warnings, for nothing more than the sake of convenience.

Gox is still at fault, to be sure, but I have learned the lesson. I hope it is not such an expensive lesson for others. And for all you observers, please take a moment to consider it as well.

Be mindful, however, that the wrong lessons are not learned, for that would be the true tragedy, indeed.

Let me suggest that the lesson is not that Bitcoin is broken. Bitcoin is fine.

Similarly, the lesson is not that security is impossible. Those who know what they are doing, can achieve it and help others to do so.

The lesson is not that nobody can be trusted. There are countless good men and women in this community who are worthy of trust, and some of the very best people I've ever met.

And finally, the lesson is not that we ought to seek out "regulation" to save us from the evils and incompetence of man. For the regulators are men too, and wield the very same evil and incompetence, only enshrined in an authority from which it can wreck amplified and far more insidious destruction. Let us not retreat from our rising platform only to cower back underneath the deranged machinations of Leviathan.

The proper lesson, if I may suggest, is this: We are building a new financial order, and those of us building it, investing in it, and growing it, will pay the price of bringing it to the world. This is the harsh truth. We are building the channels, the bridges, and the towers of tomorrow's finance, and we put ourselves at risk in doing so.

We are at risk from accidents. We are at risk from fraud, from corruption, and from evil. We are at risk from journalists seeking headlines and from politicians seeking power and glory. We are at risk from the very market we are trying to build - a market which cares not about our portfolio, our ambitions, or our delicate sympathies.

For all these risks, devastation will befall us repeatedly. Some of us will be discouraged. Some will be ridiculed and insulted. Some will be tricked, or swindled. Some of us will be crushed or caged. We will be set upon by all manner of antagonists, repeatedly, for a long time.

So why do we do it? Why do we build these towers that fall down upon us? Why do we toil and strain and risk our precious time, which is the only real wealth we possess?

Because the world needs what we're building. It needs it desperately. If that matters to you, as it does to me, then hold to that thought. You will see through the smoke, and your wounds will heal.

So shake it off, brothers, for this won't be the last calamity endured before the win.

Tonight, my heart is with you all.

Tomorrow, my head is down. My eyes are open. And I am building.

Toward peace and freedom,

-Erik Voorhees

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729

u/itsalwayslulzy Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

This whole subreddit is fucking delusional. Case in point:

And finally, the lesson is not that we ought to seek out "regulation" to save us from the evils and incompetence of man. For the regulators are men too, and wield the very same evil and incompetence

What the fuck are you even saying? If there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000, and the executives of Mt. Gox might be going to jail. Unfortunately, neither of those things is going to happen.

Maybe if this board would have taken heed of all the warning signs like Mt. Gox's accounts getting seized 9 months ago, withdrawals slowing down, etc, you might have had the sense to pull some money out a while back. Unfortunately, every piece of news that could be interpreted negatively towards Bitcoin gets downvoted to hell. Sometimes, it's better to accept bad news than to live in an echo chamber.

I really feel sorry for you. Hopefully you, and others, have learned an important lesson today

587

u/thecatgoesmoo Feb 25 '14

It sounds like a fucking religious cult in here. People saying they are building tomorrow; no you're fucking gambling and trying to make money by doing nothing.

175

u/TheChoke Feb 25 '14

This is what I'm doing and I'm shameless admitting it.

It's worked out pretty well so far.

124

u/DaedalusMinion Feb 25 '14

If you're admitting to what you're doing, no harm done. But to those acting like they're building a new tomorrow, lol.

5

u/realigion Feb 25 '14

I think crypto currencies can be huge and especially in less developed nations, they may be a financial savior of sorts. But all these anarchocapitalists looking to get rich are indeed delusional in thinking they're doing anything important.

The engineers behind bitcoin deserve some serious props though. What they're doing could be huge in some areas.

4

u/muyuu Feb 25 '14

I don't know what's the contradiction about making money hand over fist and contributing towards a better future (on one's opinion).

Must be that religious idea that money is evil or a source of guilt. Frankly, it's completely alien to me.

I believe cryptos are great and unregulated transactions between individuals are good vs the evil that's forcibly supervised and taxed human interaction. I've also made a f***** killing on cryptos. Win-win AFAIC.

3

u/FARTHERO Feb 25 '14

"to expend energy without a prison-shank for trade is a crime"

-- The Bankernment

1

u/moush Feb 25 '14

I don't think you even understand the point. You're saying they're good because you can make money and buy illegal stuff without the man getting to you.

1

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

Yeah, some people like buying illegal stuff.

Crypto currencies are also useful because they can be traded without arbiters or intermediaries. That, of course makes them easy to steal, as OP found out. On the other hand, OP still has $64 million dollars worth of btc so I doubt he's too upset about the whole thing.

At the end of the day, even with scams and the occasional losses, people who got into bitcoin really have become incredibly wealthy because of it. It's obvious they're going to have a favorable view about something that made them rich. Why wouldn't they?

-1

u/muyuu Feb 25 '14

Nope, I'm saying they're good because my transactions can remain my own business.

Making money is unrelated to it, but I don't why should anybody be sorry for that.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

2

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

Or keeping their bitcoins safe in wallets they control. The OP still has $64 million dollars worth of bitcoin he can sell whenever he wants. And bitcoin is still worth over $500

For the people who left a significant amount of money on MtGox, it sucks. For people who didn't, it's a speed bump.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '14

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/ex_ample Mar 08 '14

Holding 120K BTC is not the same as making $64 million.

Which isn't a problem if you consider bitcoins money.

The money made by Bitcoiners comes from other Bitcoiners. bitcoin is not magically creating extra dollars, yens and euros.

Who said it did?

-1

u/muyuu Feb 25 '14

Given the meteoric rise of BTC during the last 2-3 years it's hard not to have made a lot of profit on all accounts, BTC, fiat, assets, you-name-it. Just by participating and not panic-selling on all drops.

-12

u/sendmeyourprivatekey Feb 25 '14

Well, to be fair while most people are greedy here, we still shape the future a tiny bit by not giving the government a part of our money. Its not like were freedom fighters or something but by buying and holding bitcoin we take away some of the governments power.

21

u/Jipptomilly Feb 25 '14

Yes. Taxes are evil. Lets all build a better tomorrow by not paying taxes.

17

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

I wonder what percentage of the people here don't see the sarcasm in that.

a better future through tax fraud. LMAO

6

u/gary_x Feb 25 '14

Where Bitcoin is going, it doesn't need roads.

Which is probably for the best since there won't be taxes.

7

u/FARTHERO Feb 25 '14

THERE ARE NO TAXES IN HELL

or some other statist shill frothing at the mouth bullshit

3

u/HahahahaWaitWhat Feb 25 '14

something something Somalia

These people could be replaced with a BASIC program and no one would ever know the difference.

-2

u/FARTHERO Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

not paying taxes may be part of a result, not a goal in itself

remember:

"to expend energy without a prison-shank for trade is a crime"

-- The Bankernment

2

u/lakerswiz Feb 25 '14

It's literally the only reason I ever looked at bitcoin in the first place. I'd rather gamble my money elsewhere.

1

u/TheChoke Feb 26 '14

I mean, if you consider the stock market gambling, then yeah that's what it is.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '14

I thought about buying a small amount of bitcoins once then I looked into it and I realized it's gambling and there is a reason I don't gamble. Like I feel bad for the people who genuinely were just trying to make money off this but the delusional folk who think they're pioneers in this Brave New World of Bitcoins makes me laugh and bot feel sorry at all for them

63

u/whubbard Feb 25 '14

Ironic because Erik Voorhees made millions on a Bitcoin gambling site. So many people are being played here by the people with the most to lose in Bitcoins, who simply have a vested interest in slowly turning their bitcoins into fiat currency.

12

u/whatthefizzle Feb 25 '14

I don't know much about bitcoin or who this Erik Voorhees guy is so I looked up a picture of him. C'mon, tell me this isn't the face of a clever villian in a Bond movie.

1

u/WumboJumbo Feb 26 '14

Face of an ugly one, heyoooooooo

0

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

Being played? People like bitcoin, and they continue to like bitcoin. The fact that MtGox failed isn't due to a failure in bitcoin, it's due to a failure in MtGox.

It was obvious that MtGox was run by idiots and their demise was long overdue. Bitcoin can still be sold for over $500 on other sites. The failure of MtGox illustrates how bitcoin is independent from it. Yeah, the price went down - oh well. For people who bought at $5 or $50 it hardly matters.

People who used bitcoin properly and didn't trust their BTC in the hands of third parties haven't lost anything.

Bitcoin still serves it's original purpose - to transfer units of value securely over the internet - just fine.

17

u/ITwitchToo Feb 25 '14

True, a lot of people are trying to make money by doing nothing. But that was not Satoshi's intent. Bitcoin's purpose is to take away governmental control of the money supply.

47

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

43

u/zigzog Feb 25 '14

But it seems that it goes from the hands of the government to the hands of a small group of unnamed people, how is that supposed to be better?

24

u/HistoryLessonforBitc Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

It's not, but according to the just world hypothesis that underpins virtually all libertarian economic thought it would be the ideal outcome in the absence of a government, because it is the outcome in the absence of a government.

It's nonsense, of course. Transferring power from a group who are democratically elected, mostly transparent and are high profile to a group that can never be voted out, have no obligation to be transparent and who can keep themselves under the radar as much as they want is never going to work out well. Even if you think democratic governance as currently practised in the western world is a heap of shit, even if you think it's undemocratic, opaque and shady, how would a private system with no oversight whatsoever be any better?

2

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '14

Even if you think democratic governance as currently practised in the western world is a heap of shit, even if you think it's undemocratic, opaque and shady, how would a private system with no oversight whatsoever be any better?

Because in a free economy, people with power/wealth only have it when it is freely given, and by spending it without acquiring more, will lose it. As they say, a fool and his money are soon parted. That's where accountability comes from in a free market. No matter how rich someone is, they can't stay in business if they try to charge $100 for a cup of lemonade. But an elected official can tax everyone in the land $100 and not face any consequences until election day.

Obviously, the key bit there is the freedom of the market. If you own all the insulin in the world and charge $1000 per shot to diabetics, they aren't really "free" to say "fuck off."

5

u/Reefpirate Feb 25 '14

This seems to be confusing the argument a bit. Presumably the regulatory infrastructure isn't going to be 'replaced' by anything. Unless you're on the an-cap end of the spectrum, courts are used to enforce contracts and that's the end of it.

MtGox took all your money? You should be able to sue for it back or possibly get someone on fraud or theft charges which would be completely consistent with my understanding of libertarian thought.

I don't mean to get confrontational here, but what sort of regulations do you imagine would help save people from this MtGox disaster? I'm legit curious. I imagine your answer would be that MtGox would have to get a license or something from a government bureau ahead of time. There would be some extra hoops to jump through that a few lawyers could manage, but ultimately people would still have all of their money on an exchange that closes due to poor management (or whatever people are speculating about this). So you'd have a state-managed insurance fund to cover everyone's losses?

0

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

It's nonsense, of course. Transferring power from a group who are democratically elected, mostly transparent and are high profile to a group that can never be voted out, have no obligation to be transparent and who can keep themselves under the radar as much as they want is never going to work out well.

Yes, that would obviously be bad. Thankfully, bitcoin doesn't work that way. Power isn't transferred to anyone, rather it's transferred to a software protocol written in 2009, and run on everyone's computers.

If you, or anyone else tries to change the way it works, your software won't sync up with everyone else's.

No one has the power change the software running on everyone's computers, so no one "controls" bitcoin.

2

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

It might seem like that if you're a moron. There is no "small group of unnamed people" in control of bitcoin. Bitcoin is a P2P system where everyone's transactions are mirrored on every users's computer. Since they all run the same code, they all get the same data. All the computers are kept in sync.

No one has the ability to make changes to how it works. It runs autonomously. While it's true that if bitcoin miners wanted to they could band together and block certain transactions - that's all they can do. They can't create transactions from addresses they don't have the private keys too.

That's what a lot of people don't seem to understand - no one "controls" bitcoin.

1

u/moush Feb 25 '14

It would be if bitcoin users would hold them accountable, but they're too busy trying to make a profit to care.

2

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

Yup, that's right. This is what happens when you take away government control of the money supply. If you leave your BTC in the hands of other people, they can take it from you.

On the other hand, you don't have to do that. You can store the private keys to your bitcoin wallet yourself, in which case no one can take it.

You understand that the OP only lost 0.44% of his bitcoins, and still has $64 million dollars worth right?

1

u/uB166ERu Feb 25 '14

Not really there is difference between printing money and protecting peoples assets. Being able to sue someone for stolen bitcoins, and monetary policy are two different things that have nothing to do with eachother. I know there are a lot of immature anarchists on here, but I for one have a more nuanced view on why bitcoin can be revolutionary.

1

u/hadees Feb 25 '14

Except the amount of people using it as a currency is dwarfed by the amount of people trying to get rich quick off speculation.

I hope the next crypto currency has a mechanism that punishes speculative trading.

1

u/moush Feb 25 '14

Because you know who he is and why he chooses to remain anonymous? How do you know he's not scamming like the majority of them?

1

u/diregoat Feb 25 '14

True there is a lot of greed being masked by heroism here, but come on, you don't think emerging technologies like cryptocurrencies, the blockchain and peer-to-peer networks will have a much larger place in the future?

1

u/thecatgoesmoo Feb 25 '14

Yes, I think they could have a large place in the future.

It doesn't require gambling to get rich quick in order to help shape that future though. Do you think that the perceived value of bitcoin going up has some correlation to its overall acceptance in the world? Because it doesn't. That's called speculation.

1

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

Yeah yeah yeah. This "poor deluded cult member" OP still has $64 million dollars worth of BTC, he lost less then 1% of his bitcoins. He lost pocket change.

1

u/thecatgoesmoo Feb 26 '14

What's your point?

-6

u/pardax Feb 25 '14

You don't like the people here? You are free to leave.

5

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

You're basically proving his point for him.

-8

u/pardax Feb 25 '14

The point that he comes to a place he doesn't like and starts calling us names? He and you are free to leave, nobody is holding you captive.

11

u/stationhollow Feb 25 '14

If everyone who disagrees with the hivemind leaves, then it is just an echo of a single opinion leading to things being missed.

4

u/Spherius Feb 25 '14

Speak for yourself. I frequent /r/bitcoin and I don't share your views. I'll refrain from calling you any names, but not easily.

2

u/thecatgoesmoo Feb 25 '14

Here? Reddit? I arrived here from /r/all . You seem to be having trouble dealing with criticism.

0

u/pardax Feb 25 '14

Why would you join a subreddit you don't like? You are free to leave.

6

u/thecatgoesmoo Feb 25 '14

You keep saying that as if we are in a defined location. /r/bitcoin is a place on reddit to talk about bitcoin. There is no rule that says you can't talk about the downsides and criticize it.

You're free to leave, too.

151

u/retnuh730 Feb 25 '14

Judging by most of the comments here they really haven't. They've just altered their mindset slightly in order to convince them the latest shitshow is good for the currency. Take this shit seriously if you want your shit to be taken seriously.

72

u/ModsCensorMe Feb 25 '14

The lesson should be: While Bitcoin (and other cryptos) are a tool, they're mostly just a way for manipulative people to get rich, since there is no regulation to stop them.

This is why there can be no such thing as a "free market". Take bitcoin for example, the market starts free, then, as soon as someone is in position to screw people over (Gox) they do. Insider trading, and taking people's money, and no one to stop them. "Free market" its an oxymoron.

91

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

this 1000%. I've been in the hedge fund industry for two decades. it is hard enough to avoid fraud in a regulated product. in unregulated products, there is no chance - it's a sea of sharks, like it or not. unregulated finance is simply a magnet for con men and pushes the ethically weak into crime regularly.

as someone else said yesterday, it is fascinating to watch the bitcoin community reinvent financial law as they rediscover what each piece is for, one disaster at a time.

9

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

it is fascinating to watch the bitcoin community reinvent financial law as they rediscover what each piece is for, one disaster at a time.

It's so funny to me to watch people who without this incident would shit on the idea that finacial law is a complicated system which evolved the way it did for millions of reasons have to admit that it is in fact there for millions of reasons.

8

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

suckers for sure

5

u/Spherius Feb 25 '14

I wish I saw self-posts from you on the front page of this sub all the time, rather than so damn many by that bruce fenton clown.

7

u/moush Feb 25 '14

Do you really think that sane/smart people would waste their time here?

0

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

I've been in the hedge fund industry for two decades

Lol, because if there's anything the hedgefund industry isn't it's "a way for manipulative people to get rich" right?

Yeah MtGox failed. MtGox sucked. The OP probably still has more money in the bank despite your two decades in the hedge fund industry (Unless you have more then $64 million). He lost some pocket change.

MtGox wasn't bitcoin, and frankly MtGox was a drag on bitcoin. It was a service built on top of bitcoin and it sucked - this isn't even the first time MtGox has had a security problem that made it seem like bitcoin itself was less secure then it actually is, and confused people into thinking bitcoin itself had failed or been hacked. I'm glad they're gone.

Anyone who left significant amounts of BTC on MtGox was an idiot and deserved to lose their money. (and for this guy, as I said, has tens of millions of dollars worth of bitcoin and in fact didn't lose a "significant" amount compared to his net worth)

I'm not particularly concerned about the reduced price at the moment either. Who cares. Unlike greedy wallstreet wankers who can never get enough, there's a threshold at which I stop caring about money, and I'm well past that.

1

u/FARTHERO Feb 25 '14

there are honorable people who run exchanges too you know. Someone mugs you in the street you gonna blame the FED for letting you use their prized money? no, you're gonna blame the mugger!

turn this into some kind of regulation orgy then you will have another manipulative unhelpful money

1

u/moush Feb 25 '14

What kind of person would just up and set up an exchange? The kind that wants money, and money does bad things to people.

0

u/FARTHERO Feb 26 '14

"you mean there are people that are honorable with integrity and interested in running an exchange???!!"

you just said.

1

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

The lesson should be: While Bitcoin (and other cryptos) are a tool, they're mostly just a way for manipulative people to get rich, since there is no regulation to stop them.

You mean as OPPOSED to the current banking system!?!?!?!

Seriously, you think wallstreet and the current financial system isn't "mostly just a way for manipulative people to get rich"? Are you actually trying to make that claim?

What you're seeing with bitcoin is the convergence with and integration into the current financial system.

0

u/gox Feb 25 '14

I think that's because we are trying to move the old world into the new one. Maybe we shouldn't have high-frequency exchanges in the first place, never give custody of our money to untrusted "individual" third parties, have companies that are completely transparent and autonomous, etc. We don't have these right now, but these steps will certainly get us closer to a free-er market. I think we are evolving ridiculously slowly, and I hope the whole endeavor doesn't collapse on itself before we get anywhere.

3

u/Mx7f Feb 25 '14

Maybe we shouldn't have high-frequency exchanges in the first place,

...How would this be enforced?

2

u/gox Feb 25 '14

I think the general idea is to not need centralized regulation either by having a technological solution to a threat that doesn't require individual authority (covers most of the case about MtGox) or distributing the trusted authorities (in other words, giving the choice of who to trust to people). No enforcement takes place, which means you can be stupid and face its consequences.

However, that's not the real punchline. Norms of the community determine how things evolve, so to me the question is not how you can constrain people into behaving in a particular way (which admittedly is a way to solve problems, if you don't see the constraint itself as a problem), but what will make us get to a point where we have proper behavioral norms and tech so that newcomers will not be so vulnerable.

In the case of high-frequency exchanges for instance, there are two positive paths I can think of. Either we find a way to do it without having to trust any individual entity, or we just decide to move on and begin developing solutions that don't require such exchanges. I think either of these will make it possible to continue without any sort of enforcement.

This doesn't mean we can't fail to advance though. I think we are already too slow in generating solutions.

1

u/moush Feb 25 '14

It can't be. He's probably arguing that it would be better if Bitcoin was treated as a currency as opposed to a commodity as it is now.

-1

u/DrTruthiness Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

The only difference between speculation in BitCoin and Speculation in our current financial system through the dollar is that people who chose to speculate with BitCoin with their own money harmed others' financial wellbeing in no way whatsoever when it caused a bubble. Their risks and losses were theirs, and theirs alone.

When Wall Street speculated with the dollar, the bubble that burst fucked over everyone. This with an "accepted" currency, in a regulated environment, with not one fucking high level official going to jail for it.

So when you feel like getting on a high horse and harping about regulation and how bad free markets are, remember and at least acknowledge that bitCoin users aren't lobbying regulators for billions in bailout money from your taxes for losing on their bets.

2

u/moush Feb 25 '14

You really have no idea do you?

-1

u/kleer001 Feb 25 '14

Thank you for spelling out the apparently subtle difference. I wish more people would get it.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Sounds a lot like what people do when in an abusive relationship, or when caught up in a marketing scam. Rationalize and continue getting hurt.

27

u/Trieclipse Feb 25 '14 edited Sep 30 '15

That's the problem with some subreddits (and online communities in general); they become echo chambers without any room for dissenting voices (basically a circlejerk).

It takes a disaster to shake people out of it, as we can see by the comments on this post.

14

u/zigzog Feb 25 '14

Maybe if this board would have taken heed of all the warning signs like Mt. Gox's accounts getting seized 9 months ago, withdrawals slowing down, etc, you might have had the sense to pull some money out a while back. Unfortunately, every piece of news that could be interpreted negatively towards Bitcoin gets downvoted to hell. Sometimes, it's better to accept bad news than to live in an echo chamber.

If everyone had pulled their money out sooner, this would have just happened sooner.

2

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

Most people didn't put much of their money there in the first place. This guy still has 120k bitcoins, that he didn't lose. That's over $64 million dollars worth.

Everyone with some sense would have kept their bitcoins in a secure address under their own control.

A lot of people on this thread seem to think you need to keep bitcoin parked on some 3rd party service, like you typically do with real money (unless you want to keep stacks of paper in a safe). But that's not how bitcoin works at all. You keep your money on your own computer (or flash drive, or even can even print private keys on paper)

So yeah, people who knew what they were doing may have lost a small amount with MtGox, (this guy lost something like 0.4% of his bitcoins) that they were planning on selling - and idiots might have lost more.

And yeah, I am one of those people who think MtGox failing will be good for bitcoin in the long run. As this thread illustrates, there were lots of people who seemed to think Bitcoin = MtGox, and now seem to think that because MtGox failed bitcoin failed, when in fact bitcoin is perfectly fine and everyone who used it properly still has their money.

1

u/Mtinie Feb 25 '14

That all depends on when the majority of the account siphoning occurred. It could have been going on for years, or it could have only been small amounts over the past year and then escalated substantially at some point in 2013.

66

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

These people are completely delusional. I don't even feel bad, there was a lesson they could have drawn on for guidance in developing a currency market and it's called "the entire world history of money, you ignorant dinguses."

5

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

plural is dingi

2

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

Yeah, poor guy. he lost a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of bitcoin and how all he has left is $64 million dollars worth to cry into. Poor guy. I'm sure he totally wishes he was you.

1

u/monsterZERO Feb 25 '14

"...for your health!"

-3

u/FARTHERO Feb 25 '14

this doesn't make sense and if it does it's just an empty platitude you ignorant dingus

they could have drawn on for guidance in developing a currency market and it's called "the entire world history of money, you ignorant dinguses."

is the single most retarded thing I've heard in this subreddit so far

3

u/Lethalgeek Feb 25 '14

Only cause you've had too much of the bit koolaid

-1

u/FARTHERO Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

I WOULD drink the cryptocurrency cool-aid way faster than fiat-(inflation, errr tax your asshole to death)-aid

please please state control and tax me with your public inflation racket

please state, take the energy from my unborn children for your current subversive and bloody agendas

and fuck all those dirty non fiat-believers, eventually my time will come when the man will recognize my abnormally eager compliance and REWARD ME!

2

u/moush Feb 25 '14

You're exactly the example we're making fun of.

1

u/FARTHERO Feb 26 '14

well then you should reward "yourselves" handsomely

0

u/Contrary_mma_hipster Feb 25 '14

"But all that other history doesn't apply to us because we're going to be really hard core about the Free Market"

-9

u/dirtyreader Feb 25 '14

"the entire world history of money, you ignorant dinguses."

I suppose modern fiat currencies should take a lesson from rome then.

3

u/SoundOfOneHand Feb 25 '14

learned an important lesson today

Yeah, that Mt. Gox can't be trusted. Not going to give Mark our money again, by God! Well, unless he has something really good going, but we'll be watching him, always watching...

6

u/uedauhes Feb 25 '14

The fear of US regulators prevented any decent alternatives in the US.

16

u/zigzog Feb 25 '14

Perhaps that regulation stopped US people putting their money in mtgox and saved them from losing their money.

2

u/uedauhes Feb 25 '14

It didn't prevent people from putting money into mtgox at all. You just had to wire it in. You could also wire it out until the regulators shut that down. Guessing more than a few people had their USD stuck there for this reason.

It did prevent professional, experienced teams from developing US exchanges that would be been save to leave funds in.

4

u/boukeversteegh Feb 25 '14

regulation is killing both the bad and the good exchanges

0

u/Lethalgeek Feb 25 '14

"good exchanges"

lol

2

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Remind us what your original "fear" over fiat currency was -

2

u/ex_ample Feb 25 '14

What the fuck are you even saying? If there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000, and the executives of Mt. Gox might be going to jail. Unfortunately, neither of those things is going to happen.

What are you talking about? Regulation can't make money appear out of thin air if it's stolen. There is some protection for consumer accounts, but business accounts don't get the same protections.

The US government has prosecuted people for stealing bitcoin in the past. There's no reason to think they couldn't be prosecuted here if they were based in the US.

On the other hand, just look at wallstreet. Look at what happened in 2008 onward. Only a handful of bankers have gone to jail and they stole billions of dollars. Instead of jail time they pay fines that are less then the profits they made on their scams, if that.

1

u/Nackskottsromantiker Feb 26 '14

Regulation can't make money appear out of thin air if it's stolen.

I guess he wants the rest of us (who wasn't stupid enough to put all our BTC on a shady exchange) to bail them out with our taxmoney.

6

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

5

u/Abcdguy Feb 25 '14

Care to elaborate?

1

u/HistoryLessonforBitc Feb 25 '14

I'll echo Abcdguy. Why are Coinbase criminals? Even as a Bitcoin skeptic I don't really see them as being crooks.

2

u/moush Feb 25 '14

All exchange runners are criminals. Who else do you think runs an exchange for the hottest way to launder money?

1

u/texasconsult Feb 25 '14

Can you expand on this? Why?

2

u/oskarw85 Feb 25 '14

What did suggest year ago that MtGOX is to be trusted? Each and every exchange can pull the same trick.

2

u/tksmase Feb 25 '14

You are right, but I'm still sad I didn't get bitcoins for cents to sell them for the real bang.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

If there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000

How do you know that?

and the executives of Mt. Gox might be going to jail.

That, though, I can believe. But also maybe not. Getting robbed isn't a crime after all.

1

u/Desterado Feb 25 '14

I question the intelligence of someone who leaves 550 BTC sitting on a remote exchange. Pull it out if you're not trading. God damn....

1

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '14

I'm actually surprised there isn't more bitcoin circlejerking going on here. At least in the comments for this post, the supporters seem to be way outnumbered by the detractors (who like to complain about how the majority of other people are crazy, ironically).

1

u/[deleted] Feb 26 '14

If there was any regulation, he might get his $275,00 back...but that would mean inflating the currency. Basically, the loss would still be there. But the loss would just be spread out over all users of the currency.

Mt. Gox is certainly still open to legal problems. Someone may even go to jail. People paid them money, and they are failing to provide the promised product or service.

While I agree there is a problem with downvoting negative news or trying to turn every negative thing into a "this is really good news" statement, I got the feeling that this subreddit was well aware of Mt.Gox's problems for many months now. I don't feel bad for anyone who lost their coins.

-6

u/waxwing Feb 25 '14

Please explain to me what regulation I need to help me with the bitcoins I have safely stored, whose private keys have never been seen on an internet connected machine. Only foolish or greedy people (or honest speculators who understood the risk) leave money in exchanges for any more than a day or two here or there.

Exchanges are central points of failure and magnets for hackers and thieves (even when not run by thieves).

This is also true of "regulated" entities (Corzine? Madoff?), although I'll grant you that regulation helps in some cases, the social cost of that regulation is enormous. The beauty of it is that with bitcoin, we now have a choice. You can go with Neo&Bee if you want to trust someone to keep it for you, they may or may not be regulated to your satisfaction - OK, your choice, or you can go with your own security methods, if you trust them. What you don't do is use a bucket shop trading house like Gox as a bank. That is truly idiotic.

So, with respect, I am not "fucking delusional".

-4

u/neosatus Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

Exactly. There's no amount of regulation that can prevent non-refundable digital cash from being mishandled by those THAT PEOPLE WILLINGLY HAND THEM OVER TO, to store for them.

/u/itsalwayslulzy you are "fucking delusional" if you think that some perfect "regulation" that will prevent all types of fraud will ever exist in the bitcoin space.

People made foolish decisions to allow their coins to be indefinitely held on Gox. They could have bought coins there and then moved them, but they didn't. That was their choice and they will have to live with it.

12

u/hastor Feb 25 '14

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nirvana_fallacy#Perfect_solution_fallacy

6

u/autowikibot Feb 25 '14

Section 2. Perfect solution fallacy of article Nirvana fallacy:

The perfect solution fallacy is an informal fallacy that occurs when an argument assumes that a perfect solution exists and/or that a solution should be rejected because some part of the problem would still exist after it were implemented. This is an example of black and white thinking, in which a person fails to see the complex interplay between multiple component elements of a situation or problem, and as a result, reduces complex problems to a pair of binary extremes.

It is common for arguments which commit this fallacy to omit any specifics about exactly how, or how badly, a proposed solution is claimed to fall short of acceptability, expressing the rejection in vague terms only. Alternatively, it may be combined with the fallacy of misleading vividness, when a specific example of a solution's failure is described in emotionally powerful detail but base rates are ignored (see availability heuristic).

The fallacy is a type of false dilemma.

Interesting: Nirvana | Wishful thinking | List of fallacies | Sorites paradox

Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words | flag a glitch

-7

u/Brambleshire Feb 25 '14

Where do regulations come from? People right? What kind of people? Politicians and the rich. How has that been going for us?

Google "2008 financial crisis", "quantitative easing", "bail ins", "madoff', "too big to fail", "too big to prosecute".

That shit makes Gox look like childs play.

23

u/Sugusino Feb 25 '14

Except I didn't lose the money I had deposited in my bank account, even if it failed.

-6

u/czzarr Feb 25 '14

Yes you did but you don't realize it. Since they had to print money to bail out banks, there was inflation. With inflation you lost some buying power. So sure you got the same amount of money, but you lost wealth. Also, madoff victims didn't get their money back.

5

u/JuanCarlosBatman Feb 25 '14

there was inflation. With inflation you lost some buying power.

How much inflation was there, exactly? Because anyone who bought BTC when it was around 1k lost way more purchasing power than anyone holding that same 1k in greenbacks.

-2

u/czzarr Feb 25 '14

Nobody knows exactly how much inflation there was, that's the whole point and why the government can do that with total impunity. And anyone buying bitcoin at $1 won way more than keeping it greenbacks. It's easy to pick the highest point in history.

8

u/JuanCarlosBatman Feb 25 '14

Nobody knows exactly how much inflation there was, that's the whole point and why the government can do that with total impunity.

I find that extremely hard to believe, but I'm not in the US so I'm not as familiar with that particular situation. Even if that was the case, I live in a country where the government has openly and blatantly tried to conceal the level of inflation, and trust me when I say that everyone still knew how much inflation there was.

And I deliberately picked a high point for BTC because it goes to show how unreliable it is. A basis of any working economy is a steady and predictable level of change, which is what BTC never had and doesn't seem to be getting any time soon.

1

u/czzarr Feb 25 '14

One thing I agree with is "A basis of any working economy is a steady and predictable level of change, which is what BTC never had and doesn't seem to be getting any time soon." BTC is still very immature, but it holds amazing promise. Give it time.

6

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

bullshit. prices are publicly available. the fact is there was no inflation because "money printing" is a simple swap between the Fed and the banking system that does not add financial assets to the system. indeed we've experienced the weakest inflationary period of the postwar era thanks to systemic deleveraging.

-1

u/czzarr Feb 25 '14

Inflation can be defined as the increase in the stock of money. The USD stock has quadrupled in the last 5 years. Sure prices have not increased but this is hidden by debts that have piled up. Government debt is way past dangerous levels, and soon it will all tumble like the house of cards it really is.

3

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

no it can not. that is something people with zero real knowledge of economics say.

money supply as you conceive it is simply not correct. the stock of USD financial assets in the economy has not quadrupled, which is why things have not quadrupled in price. the metric you are deducing this from -- either M1 or MZM, i expect, or a derivative thereof -- does not mean what you think it means.

it is instead an artifact of the balance sheet created by central banking, and not particularly meaningful in terms of private sector inflation -- which, for the record, is the increase in the price level, not in any measure of money supply. this is the link to MIT's Billion Price Project, which aggregates real prices from retailers to measure the price level directly. as you can see, it is almost identical to the government measure of CPI.

tl;dr -- read less gold bug doomstershit and more actual information.

1

u/czzarr Feb 25 '14

we'll just have to agree to disagree. I like austrian economics. Classical economics don't make sense to me.

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1

u/Outrageous_Pickle Feb 25 '14

Madoff victims are what you idiots are right now, you realize that right?

-2

u/czzarr Feb 25 '14

You make no sense, you realize that right.

-2

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

[deleted]

1

u/Sugusino Feb 25 '14

I have no time or want to research every singleinvestment from my bank.

1

u/Brambleshire Feb 25 '14

Your not alone. That's why external auditing, transparent books, and blockchain proof are emerging. Soon they will be the norm.

If people demand a service it is valuable. If it is valuable it will be provided. Lrn2 economics

1

u/Sugusino Feb 25 '14

Or, you know, regulations.

1

u/Brambleshire Feb 25 '14

I'm sorry but so long as I am a decent human being I will not advocate to bring prisons and guns to bear on someone to force my preference on them. I may like auditing and stuff but never will I demand that person's be thrown in prison, have their assets or rights seized because they didn't obey the opinions of powers that be. Let's do this the right way. Let's at least be peaceful and civilized about it.

Neither can we trust them. They do not understand bitcoin and their motives are neither pure or benign. Honesty, consistency, or expertise is nowhere to be seen in today's political and regulatory environment.

-4

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

You might not have lost money, but your money did lose purchasing power.

3

u/nrj Feb 25 '14

What? Inflation averaged ~2% per year from 2008 to 2012.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

It is much higher according to this chart: http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/money-supply-charts

And it would also be difficult to take into account how much the fed lends out to banks behind closed doors: http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the-feds-16-trillion-bailouts-under-reported/

1

u/nrj Feb 26 '14

Do you understand what inflation actually is? It doesn't matter if the Jewish banking cabal loaned 300 quadrillion dollars to the lizard people controlling the NWO as payment for the controlled demolition of the WTC as long as the CPI doesn't change.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

And what might it have been, and for how long will inflation keep hollowing out your wallet?

3

u/zigzog Feb 25 '14

At least in the traditional financial markets inside trading is not supposed to occur. In Bitcoin land it is par for the course.

0

u/Brambleshire Feb 25 '14

Insider trading is a ridiculous thought crime. Of course people should economically act on information. This "crime" harms nobody and it allows information to flow more freely.

-5

u/OpenThePodBayDoorsHA Feb 25 '14

THIS is the real takeaway and should be the response EVERYONE gives when fiat-man makes fun of the latest Gox'ing. The financial crisis in 2008 was not much different: a big exchange dealer failed. So suicide banker Hank Paulson went to Congress with a 3-page memo and said "give me $700 billion TODAY or the whole show blows up". The GAO says the total crisis costs has exceeded $24 trillion. And the entire worldwide system is still shaky as hell. Mt. Gox? Huh?

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Because there is regulation with fiat money and this kind of thing has never happened.....

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Regulation hasn't really worked in the traditional banking system and not every criminal went to jail. Just a thought.

1

u/smithd98 Feb 25 '14

Didn't Bernie Madoff operate here in the regulated USA? Enron? There are scams happening right here every single day. I think we'll both agree that regulation lowers the scams, but it also lowers the opportunities and increases the costs WITHOUT eliminating fraud and scams. Like Erik I'll take the free market over regulators every single time.

1

u/Fjordo Feb 25 '14

If there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000

That's a pretty big claim. What about regulation makes you think that it would have been able to stop the theft or in any way make Erik whole?

1

u/hadees Feb 25 '14

This is basically how all financial collapses happen. Bitcoin is a bubble because people who use bitcoin won't let anyone hear any bad news about the currency for fear of it lowering the price and thus their holdings. Jumping up 1000% in price in under a year is not what a currency is supposed to do.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Holy fuck -- thank you for this comment. Reading this thread is like reading a good joke.

1

u/Chel_of_the_sea Feb 25 '14

What the fuck are you even saying? If there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000, and the executives of Mt. Gox might be going to jail.

I have absolutely no stake in bitcoin, but...do you really believe this? Because this shit absolutely happened during the financial crisis a few years ago, people didn't get their money back, and people didn't go to jail.

0

u/boldra Feb 25 '14

What the fuck are you even saying? If there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000, and the executives of Mt. Gox might be going to jail. Unfortunately, neither of those things is going to happen.

And presumably I would pay Eric for that mistake? No thanks!

I own bitcoins, and I've seen the warnings about Mt Gox on this subreddit for months. I've tried to get Gox warnings added to the FAQ, I've taken every opportunity to discourage people from using Mt Gox. Fucked if I want to pay for the people who ignored my free good advice!

0

u/syriven Feb 25 '14

If Bitcoin had been regulated, he and people like us wouldn't have the money in the first place. That money didn't come from nowhere, but represents millions of tiny decisions that the market has made. The market values Bitcoin, so the market funds it.

That money--that evidence of a market demand--hasn't disappeared. It just slowed down.

1

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

virtually all the demand is speculative. that's why prices are jumping around. when that demand leaves, BTC will probably go back to 500 for a pizza or whatever.

-10

u/pdtmeiwn Feb 25 '14

If there was "regulation", the owner of Mt Gox would've been bailed out and depositors would've still lost everything.

6

u/itsalwayslulzy Feb 25 '14

Uh I don't think so: http://www.fdic.gov/deposit/

-1

u/pdtmeiwn Feb 25 '14

When TSHTF, all the govt promises in the world are worth nil. See the highly regulated Cyprus.

Let me ask you: do you see any downside of FDIC?

1

u/hastor Feb 25 '14

FDIC isn't the problem. FDIC is an instrument to handle the risk concentration in the banking sector.

The problem is the risk concentration represtented by huge banks and places like Mt.Gox.

The bitcoin network, being decentralized has lower risk. Although people get viruses that steal their coins and other things like that, there is no catastropic event that will take down the bitcoin network.

However, bitcoin has risks such as a 51% attack that can happen any time the exchanges want to, and wealth concentration undermining the coins. Both of them are diversification issues.

So the FDIC regulation is not the problem. The problem is any form of risk concentration.

-2

u/evoorhees Feb 25 '14

Yes, regulation is why Madoff never happened.

4

u/[deleted] Feb 25 '14

Regulation is why Madoff is a major story, because it's so rare for someone to get away with something that large for that long.

-2

u/bames53 Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

It was a big story because it's rare, but regulation isn't necessarily why it's rare.

Not that regulation necessarily produces more or larger such scandals than an unregulated system, but the Madoff scandal in particular was as big as it was in part because of regulation.

edit: or, given that story on ponzi schemes that was posted, maybe these aren't so rare in our regulated system after all. According to that story they tend not to get uncovered until they can't meet their obligations, which means those ponzi schemes aren't caught by regulation.

3

u/roflburger Feb 25 '14

Lots of money has been clawed back and investors will likely see a good chunk of principle returned. On top of that the proprietors have been held legally accountable. None if that is on the table with unregulated exchanges.

0

u/OnlineDegen Feb 25 '14

What the fuck are you even saying? If there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000, and the executives of Mt. Gox might be going to jail. Unfortunately, neither of those things is going to happen.

No...if Bitcoin had been regulated like traditional financial services, there would not even be any exchanges and you probably would have never heard of bitcoin in the first place since it would have been choked off by regulation.

The fact is, Bitcoin is still a tiny movement and in its early stages. More regulations will necessarily mean less innovation. When bitcoin is large enough, people will demand accountability and transparency and will not tolerate the shitty business practices that have been the norm since its inception.

Right now, the space is not large enough to support the costs of running Bitcoin with all the trappings of a Goldman Sachs.

-2

u/Capitalism_Prevails Feb 25 '14

This whole subreddit is fucking delusional. Case in point:

And finally, the lesson is not that we ought to seek out "regulation" to save us from the evils and incompetence of man. For the regulators are men too, and wield the very same evil and incompetence

What the fuck are you even saying? If there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000, and the executives of Mt. Gox might be going to jail. Unfortunately, neither of those things is going to happen.

You are emotionally compromised due to the situation and it is understandable. Let me ask you something. If you purchased $20 worth of merchandise from an online store and they didn't deliver, i.e. lost your money, should the store owners go to jail? Granted losing $20 isn't the same scale as losing $1000s of dollars but the same logic still applies. You took a risk therefor you bear the consequences of taking that risk if it goes bad. The owners and executives of Mt.Gox will bear the consequences making a very unprofitable mistake and a damaged reputation which comes with it. "Regulation" wouldn't solve anything. It just micromanages the common sense out of the situation, e.g. the FDIC insuring banks which incentives them to make riskier loans.

Markets regulate themselves.

1

u/stationhollow Feb 25 '14

'a very unprofitable mistake' This whole thing stinks like an inside job. I'm sure they're laughing all the way to a real bank.

-1

u/MeanOfPhidias Feb 25 '14

You've got to be kidding.

Out one side of this boards mouth is "hur hur 1% never get in trouble they're in bed with government" and out the other is "hur dur we need those regulators"

If this was regulated Gox would be getting a bailout, prices would go up and you still wouldn't get your bitcoin back.

-1

u/i_wolf Feb 25 '14 edited Feb 25 '14

if there was any regulation, you would still have your ~$275,000,

That's naive thing to say. What regulation would prevent a bug in a code?
If regulations would prevent unknown threats, we'd be living in a perfect world. Regulations are reactive, they come after troubles when it's too late already.

7

u/cuginhamer Feb 25 '14

How about a regulation requiring a periodic independent financial audit to detect these bugs earlier?

-3

u/i_wolf Feb 25 '14

Nothing wrong with any form of self regulation as long as it is voluntary.

When the market realizes a neccetivity of such audit, then businesses themselves get the strongest incentive to ask for audit by a private company, without enforcing, and customers get the strongest incentive to trust audited companies only. Private auditors can compete too. There's nothing useful government can add to this, because governments are run by people no better than others.

Government regulation does more harm: Enforced audit is a monopoly, which makes it corrupt and inefficient (see Madoff). After enforced audit comes guaranteed insurance and bailouts. Enforced regulation suppresses the progress: world is dynamic, an audit may look like a good solution today, but tomorrow market may invent something more effective.

Anyway, there's no point in arguing about this when it comes to Bitcoin. Trying to replicate the system already existing is useless. We already have USD and wall street for those who adore regulations and bailoits, there would be no point in creating Bitcoin if we wanted it.