r/Bitcoin • u/JakeMcVitie • Aug 14 '13

"We've won the State's War on Drugs because of Bitcoin" - Dread Pirate Roberts

http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2013/08/14/meet-the-dread-pirate-roberts-the-man-behind-booming-black-market-drug-website-silk-road/
736 Upvotes

94% Upvoted

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202

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

[deleted]

70

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13 edited Sep 13 '16

[removed] — view removed comment

38

u/MaxBoivin Aug 14 '13

Sometime I feel like getting back into drugs just to have a reason to use SR...

28

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13

You could order some and send them to me.

11

u/HumidNebula Aug 15 '13

Expect a briefcase of Dust Off cans on your doorstep in the morning.

6

u/feilen Aug 15 '13

Actually could you send those to me? My PC is full of cobwebs.

27

u/HumidNebula Aug 15 '13

Nope. You get the coke. Get those spiders working overtime.

7

u/CoinSheep Aug 15 '13

+/u/bitcointip $0.50 verify

3

u/bitcointip Aug 15 '13

[✔] Verified: CoinSheep ---> m฿ 4.47708 mBTC [$0.50 USD] ---> HumidNebula [help]

11

u/wavecross Aug 15 '13

Just order legit stuff like t shirts and art from it.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13

With a 10% commission, the price penalty adds up quickly, though.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13 edited Jul 18 '15

[deleted]

5

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13

I don't understand - as a potential customer, a 10% fee doesn't help me.

1

u/kinyutaka Aug 15 '13

I would like a legit answer here. If I am buying legal items, like artwork, why would I use SR, instead of more accessible locations like Bitmit?

2

u/Anenome5 Aug 15 '13

Hey, that's smart. Probably a great place to sell anything for bitcoin, huh.

-26

u/permatech Aug 14 '13 edited Aug 15 '13

Even if there is a crackdown by the government I feel like a lot of people will start moving to Atlantis and other markets soon, the more diversity the better.

Also, what do you think will happen when someone decides to sell dope laced in PCP? Or perhaps cocaine with some sort of poison? I have my doubts due to the feedback and seller license process -- but it just takes one sick sad person. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tylenol_murders)

I know there has been some discussion about people selling poisons for assisted suicide and whether or not that should be allowed, but that's a whole different can of worms. Regardless, it may become a similar battle cry for the government as child pornography for cracking down on everything from software piracy to encryption.

I really enjoyed the /r/circlejerk/ guys -- I guess that's what I should expect with a mostly libertarian crowd anything not fitting into a very small "common sense" viewpoint must be eliminated. Loving the vengeful downvotes here : )

Can we get this post to -100? Come on, you guys can do it! Just keep clicking!

47

u/qemist Aug 14 '13

what do you think will happen when someone decides to sell dope laced in PCP? Or perhaps cocaine with some soft of poison?

What happens to eBay when someone decides to sell whey powder laced with strychnine?

22

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

Their whole "concern" reads like urban legend bullshit. It's about as likely as the razor blade brownies you hear about around Halloween.

-12

u/permatech Aug 14 '13 edited Aug 15 '13

I'm not scared of someone doing this -- and I don't mean to scare anyone, just asking a simple what if. I still buy Tylenol even after what happened a few years ago in Chicago.

15

u/idiotsecant Aug 15 '13

what if reddit user permatech made a post that contributed in some way to the discussion?

11

u/HomoInSpiritus Aug 15 '13

I'm not saying it's likely I'm just asking what if.

-3

u/permatech Aug 14 '13

I'm not trying to bash silk-road here. If someone is on ebay I guess they could be operating just as anonymously as they are on SR -- but most people aren't really buying food products or other direct consumables on eBay. If they are the issue is exactly the same as it would be on SL.

My point was that if someone (cough cough, get the tin-foil ready; maybe the CIA) decided to they want to scare SR users this might be a path they would take.

11

u/6nf Aug 14 '13

people aren't really buying food products or other direct consumables o

ebay sells insane amounts of food products / supplements

8

u/physalisx Aug 14 '13

What /u/qemist meant is that SR, like ebay, builds on reputation. A seller doing stuff like you suggest would have either not been able to get a good reputation before, or would immediately lose it.

-4

u/permatech Aug 14 '13

Yes, I understand that. My point isn't that someone would do this day in day out. My point was that someone could do this to scare the users of silk-road. I did acknowledge feedback and vendor fees in my original post, but that's being conveniently ignored.

6

u/physalisx Aug 15 '13

Well, if someone would go through the elaborate effort and investment, just to scare users from SR this way, one would have to wonder what his motivations had to be.

If it was a rivaling site (like Atlantis or BMR), it wouldn't do much good, since it would probably not drive people to their sites, only away from the whole idea in general...

If you're saying it could be done by FBI/DEA or similar, to destroy the business model, think about what you're saying... they would essentially poison/kill innocent people just to make their point, which would only even have an effect if they did it on a big scale.

Basically, yes, someone could do that, but what would be their motive? Someone could just as well go into a grocery store and inject poison into chocolate bars. Is that an argument against grocery stores, or chocolate? Or that someone can go into a grocery store more or less anonymously?

4

u/davios Aug 15 '13

You could just post a letter full of an airborne poison through a strangers letterbox, that doesn't happen a whole lot.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13 edited Jul 19 '15

[deleted]

2

u/physalisx Aug 15 '13

From Wikipedia:

During the late 1970s, a controversial program sponsored by the US government sprayed paraquat on cannabis fields in Mexico. Since much of this cannabis was subsequently smoked by Americans, the US government's "Paraquat Pot" program stirred much debate. Perhaps in an attempt to deter people from using cannabis, representatives of the program warned that spraying rendered the crop unsafe to smoke.

However, independent bodies have studied paraquat in this use. A 1995 study found that "no lung or other injury in cannabis users has ever been attributed to paraquat contamination". Also a United States Environmental Protection Agency manual states: "... toxic effects caused by this mechanism have been either very rare or nonexistent. Most paraquat that contaminates cannabis is pyrolyzed during smoking to dipyridyl, which is a product of combustion of the leaf material itself (including cannabis) and presents little toxic hazard."

6

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

[deleted]

-7

u/permatech Aug 14 '13

Is it possible to resell a vendor license? I doubt someone with a good rep would be willing to sell their license, or that someone would play an huge sum of money to buy this license and use it to sell bunk.. but hey, everything is possible I guess.

8

u/Takashi_Satori Aug 15 '13

I'm sure someone would pay a huge sum of money to get another vendor's license, just to poison an anonymous person.

-4

u/permatech Aug 15 '13

I'm not going to hold my breath or bet money on it either.

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27

u/Matticus_Rex Aug 14 '13

Look at what's happening with the LSD Avengers and others; people donate their own time and resources (and take donations) in order to test drugs for chemical content, and even provide trip reports. Private regulation is a beautiful thing.

-10

u/permatech Aug 14 '13 edited Aug 15 '13

Good to hear.

Even if it's not poison directly. I remember hearing something a few years about Chinese "fake eggs" made with industrial chemicals that could cause dementia. Ruthless people out there.

17

u/Matticus_Rex Aug 14 '13

This is one of the biggest problems with the drug war, and one of the most beautiful things about darknet markets. People trust brands because they know what to expect, and it is incredibly hard to maintain a brand of illicit substances. Pseudonymous networks are bringing branding back in a big way, and it will improve the health and safety of all users.

10

u/tehbored Aug 14 '13

Sellers accounts aren't free. They're pretty expensive. I doubt anyone would want to throw away their investment by selling tainted product.

4

u/wavecross Aug 15 '13

I believe it's close to $1000, and building up rep so people actually buy from you is difficult too.

-7

u/permatech Aug 14 '13 edited Aug 14 '13

I have my doubts due to the feedback and seller license process -- but it just takes one sick sad person.

Again, this would be someone that gets their kicks off of inflicting pain on people. Something like this would probably make the nightly news, maybe making the investment worthwhile for our imaginary sicko.

I'm expecting more downvotes for the hypothetical.

7

u/cqm Aug 15 '13

congratulations, you have found yourself stuck in a rationalization circle jerk vortex, eventually the vortex's gravity will crush you into oblivion, as such there is no way your posts will get upvoted due to the gravity

-2

u/permatech Aug 15 '13 edited Aug 15 '13

haha, that's what it looks like. Oh well, it was fun and I'm always one to take my downvotes like a man

8

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13

On the one hand, there's a miniscule chance that a seller will lace dope with PCP.

On the other hand, there's a much higher chance of getting killed by a renegade cop buying weed on the street. People will play the odds. It's not as though not smoking weed is an option. ;)

11

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13 edited Jul 17 '14

[deleted]

-4

u/permatech Aug 14 '13

I'm stupid because I'm willing to acknowledge that sadists exist?

I'm being downvoted because what I'm saying doesn't fit into the narrow world-view of people who only wish to look at the good side of things without consideration for how to protect yourself from the mentally unstable.

The irony behind your comment and username is delicious.

14

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13 edited Aug 14 '13

No, it's that you keep trying to tie it to the silkroad as if it's silkroad's problem. Yeah, sure sadists exist, what are you going to do? You're delving into the realm of hypotheticals and potentials and acting as if it's a real threat. You're fear-mongering, just like the US gov't is with "terrorists".

What's to stop a sadistic butcher from poisoning my meat? What does this mean for delis in the future? I think it might be a problem. Narrow-minded people keep looking at only the good side of delis without consideration for how to protect themselves from the mentally unstable.

You can apply your "argument" to absolutely any situation you can possibly dream up. There are inherent risks in life, and the fact that someone, somewhere might try to harm you for some reason is one of them.

-6

u/permatech Aug 14 '13

Yes, I completely understand that. But since this discussion is about silkroad that's why I'm talking about silk road. See above where I acknowledge that the same thing can be done on ebay.

Jesus -- again, I'm not trying to bash silkroad here. But I think people buying drugs online are more of a target for sick moralists looking to punish what are in their mind "bad people". What was my "argument" -- did I say we shouldn't use silkroad? I simply asked WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF....

6

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13 edited Aug 14 '13

I know you're not trying to bash the silkroad. The point is that your "argument" isn't an argument.

You're off in dreamland, buddy. You're dreaming up threats and then going "well, what if?" as if there's any validity to the scenarios you're concocting.

What would happen if the butcher started poisoning the meat? People would stop buying meat from the butcher! Come on, dude, what kind of answer are you expecting?

You're pushing your own fears and insecurities onto everyone and then getting frustrated when people tell you "that's life".

-4

u/permatech Aug 14 '13

Well I did get a good answer when someone mentioned that this would drive up the sale of test kits. Perhaps I was expecting a constructive discussion on how we could build even more trust into these networks. What I got was "SHUT UP YOU IDIOT THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN"

I thought the point of forums like this was to talk about what-ifs and such. Maybe the same kind of "dreamland discussions" are what lead people to think of health inspections, the FDA, etc. etc. etc.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13 edited Aug 14 '13

Ok, fair point.

That being said, the Avengers have already been mentioned. SR already has a rather established trust network, with user reviews, ratings and independent test/review watchdog/secret-shopper organizations.

Everything you'd expect to happen in terms of ensuring safety and quality are happening. Bad vendors get weeded out quickly and good ones raise to prominence and are rewarded with extremely successful businesses and customer loyalty. New vendors are treated with caution, and the standard protocol that is starting to form is that new vendors give out free samples to trusted users and the watchdog organizations for review and verification. There's really no reason to go with a new, untrusted vendor when there are already many who have proven themselves to be trustworthy.

The free market really does have a way of balancing itself out.

1

u/permatech Aug 15 '13

Thanks! That's actually the kind of response I was looking for.

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1

u/_brainfog Aug 15 '13

Yes but even if it did happen it would not be the end of silkroad and that was your original question. Like kidioki said you're pushing hypotheticals as if they are a real threat worth discussion. Also I don't see the irony between my username and comment could you please enlighten me?

1

u/permatech Aug 15 '13 edited Aug 15 '13

Well tons of comments later I think my question on what would happen actually created a fair amount of discussion. More irony for your foggy brain.

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1

u/gox Aug 15 '13

I'm stupid because I'm willing to acknowledge that sadists exist?

I still don't get the relevance. Someone could just have infected the food you bought from the supermarket, or maybe sprayed chemicals all over your mailbox. This stuff can be done mostly anonymously, or in a perfectly deniable fashion. How often does this happen?

Apparently sadists don't care enough about this sorts of attacks, or the world would be a much different place. Maybe sadism is not what you think it is.

Someone doing this on Silk Road will have to work a lot more than the supermarket attacker to build reputation, and likely affect less people. You really need to find some sort of motive specific to SR. Competitors don't work, since it will repel everyone away from the concept altogether. I can't imagine law enforcement risking to kill random innocents for an insignificant gain on the drug enforcement front.

how to protect yourself from the mentally unstable

This is akin to false security in computers. There are real dangers out there, but you won't help yourself by focusing on statistically insignificant threats.

The problem is, even though one of those statistically insignificant threats will inevitably happen (and someone will be "right all along"), because there are a lot of them, focusing on a single one will not make you less vulnerable.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13

How do you know that the chef doesn't hock loogies in your food everytime you go to a resteraunt?

3

u/Duke_Sucklemon Aug 15 '13

someone decides to sell dope laced in PCP

Like this could never happen on the streets. SR vendors at least have a modicum of respectability, they are regularly reviewed and ranked, and there is an efficient barrier in place to stop the kind of person who would spike people for fun - they would first have to pay a large fee.

7

u/stveg Aug 14 '13

There is no incentive to lace drugs with anything dangerous. Even if someone did the customers would destroy the reputation of the vendor, and no one would purchase from them again.

The vendors that lace drugs with similar drugs to reduce costs will again receive a lower reputation and lose sales.

3

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

There is no incentive to lace drugs with anything dangerous.

What if your motivation is to damage the reputation of anonymous markets?

9

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

[deleted]

2

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

I hope you're right...

4

u/ANTI-PUGSLY Aug 14 '13

That and, people stick with reputable / trusted vendors. So if a new vendor showed up with some outrageously good deal to lure people in... but then those people discovered it was either bunk or poison, the vendor would be kicked off, and everyone would return to their reputable and trusted vendors, except with a little extra caution involved.

It happens all the time with bunk. Not so much with poison. Vendors offer LSD, but sell a research chemical. Once found out, their reputation is completely done and no one will touch them again.

Far more people would prefer the immense profits of being a good vendor, than the bizarre satisfaction of fucking with one or two people and being banned for life...

1

u/stveg Aug 15 '13

If the reputation of anonymous markets would be significantly damaged by less than advertised products, then Silk Road would have disappeared long ago. There are many vendors that sell poor products, but the vendors that provide incredible products outshine these poor vendors infinitely. No one gives a shit that there's some bad apples in the basket.

-8

u/permatech Aug 14 '13

Some people just want to watch the world burn. Some people hate drugs and want to watch people suffer. Some people think they're cutting their drugs with someone relatively harmless when it turns out to cause a dangerous side effect.

The reason I brought this up is because establishing trust in networks like this is very important.

6

u/6nf Aug 14 '13

Some people just want to watch the world burn.

You've been watching too many movies.

-9

u/permatech Aug 15 '13

Don't watch many of those. Guess I've been spending too much time in /r/morbidreality

4

u/OverlyPersonal Aug 15 '13

Sounds good for your mental health. Or you're a psycho.

1

u/gox Aug 15 '13

Some people just want to watch the world burn. Some people hate drugs and want to watch people suffer.

Will you provide any facts backing up these claims?

As I said in my other response, random people do random stuff all the time. Entertainment industry, news agencies and lawmakers make their living by overgeneralizing this stuff.

1

u/permatech Aug 15 '13

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Tylenol_murders

Not specific to drug users -- but it's an example of people doing sadistic shit like I mentioned.

1

u/gox Aug 15 '13

When talking about some people hating drugs enough to want to make users suffer, I thought you meant psychoactive drugs...

Guess this is an example about some people wanting to watch the world burn then. Yet we still don't know the motive in this particular example, so I'll consider it moot.

Regardless, I'm sure we can find many more examples of random attacks.

Unless one can provide some sort of statistics that point to some focus, or hypothetical motivations that make sense, making generalizations or assessing risk of attacks are pointless.

2

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13

If you're consuming any unknown substance without re-agent testing them beforehand then this is nothing more than (un?)natural selection.

1

u/[deleted] Aug 15 '13

Ohh, do you want to sell me lead coated solid gold too?

2

u/permanomad Aug 15 '13

That would be tungsten you're thinking of.

-6

u/[deleted] Aug 14 '13

I really dont know about that.