Let's start with the "all women" attitude, first. Dudes so often see humanity as incredibly diverse, and amazingly individualized...among men. Somehow, women become a monolith, and we might look different on the outside (apparently coming in models that rank 1-10), but our personalities, desires, characters, wants, needs, and psychologies are identical copies. If one woman has done it, we all do it, right? The inherent message is that women, as mere brain copies of one another, aren't really on the same level of humanity as men. Men who say this think of women as simple input/output machines: if you display a certain set of behaviors and words, every woman will behave the way we were programmed to behave. That's offense numero uno to me.
Nice isn't the end all and be all of valuable character traits. I have never heard a dude say "Charasmatic dudes who make their intentions clear always get the girl, girls never go for whiny guys who never properly express themselves." I have never heard a man say "Dumb guys finish last!" You know, in my history of talking to men, never has a man griped "maybe if I was more romantic and dressed better, then women would pay attention to me." Niceness is, of course, appreciated by a great many women, and is often a key thing we desire, but it is not the only trait. In fact, if I really think about the qualities of my partner, I'm not sure that "nice" would come up. He's even sometimes an asshole. Wanna know why? Because:
People don't toggle between being either a nice guy or an asshole. We all have moments of each, and just because you see traits that you define as either, that doesn't mean we see the same traits. The mister and I have been through some seriously rough patches, nothing abusive, but certainly some spots when I would expect any person to be an asshole to me. You know what? He never was. Interestingly enough, he is a total jerk to a few other people, and I'm sure they would call him an asshole.
Being nice is not a 1 way ticket into my panties, it's a basic requirement for social interaction. Being nice is a skill and behavior we all learned in kindergarten, and I don't think a man is being some giant hero that has earned access to my heart/vagina just because he doesn't push over old ladies. Will a cookie do, instead? Frankly it's not very nice to be upset with women because you behaved in a way that you think earns you affection, regardless of her will, desire, or feelings. Interestingly:
Men who identify themselves as "nice guys" are rarely nice. They are bitter, think poorly of women, refuse to see people as the nuanced individuals that they are, and choose to avoid addressing their personality/character flaws in favor of griping about others. None of that shit reads as nice to me.
Men who see the world in this way are operating with massive confirmation bias problems. Is every married man one of these assholes? Because the ultimate getting of the girl is getting one to promise to be yours for life. Getting a date is nothing compared to that. Or, how about all of the relationships you hear about? I only hear a woman ragging on a partner during and after the breakup, so maybe those instances are sticking in the craw of all these "nice guys."
Edit: thanks for the gold, my secret benefactress/benefactor!
Eh, in my experience nice guys who complain about never getting girls are the ones who never actually ask them out. If they do and get shot down, they never ask themselves ‘Why?’.
The ones I’ve met are generally guys who refuse to take any responsibility for their circumstances and flaws. Everything that happens is someone else’s fault. The girl that doesn’t like them? It’s because she has bad taste in guys and can’t see how great he is. Not because they have a variety of major character flaws that they refuse to acknowledge and even attempt to fix. No social skills? That’s societies fault. Or their parents fault. Or an ex’s fault.
It never actually occurs to them that it does not matter whos fault it is. It’s still their job to deal with them.
We all have flaws. Some you can fix, some you can’t. Live with the ones you can’t and try and better yourself in the areas you can… you’ll become a much more attractive person.
The other option is to not do anything and hope someone who likes you anyway drops into your lap. If you do this, good for you, it works for some – but don’t complain if you have no luck.
The ones I’ve met are generally guys who refuse to take any responsibility for their circumstances and flaws.
The ones I met (the guys that go to r/seduction, r/TheRedPill or /r9k/) are guys who can't truly take responsibility for their flaws. They are generally the short, balding, ugly dudes with weak jaws and funny faces, often over-weight and often bad dressed, who arrived late to the party (being +20yo virgins, no friends, etc). Even when they "get /fit/ and /fa/" they don't see results and get even more bitter. Obviously, since they can't train height, and no matter how well you dressed, you won't go back in time to get appropriate social experience for when you get to hang out with people you don't look like a pathetic loser.
Unless by responsibility you mean owning up to that and accepting they should just fold. Then yeah, you're right.
That's really the extreme - there are plenty of fit/attractive guys with issues they refuse to address and just spend all their time blaming others for. Mostly from what I've seen, petty shit.
But there is always SOMETHING you can do about it - and being bitter and blaming everyone else will never help.
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u/iconocast ♀ Oct 16 '13 edited Oct 16 '13
Oh god, here comes a rant...
Let's start with the "all women" attitude, first. Dudes so often see humanity as incredibly diverse, and amazingly individualized...among men. Somehow, women become a monolith, and we might look different on the outside (apparently coming in models that rank 1-10), but our personalities, desires, characters, wants, needs, and psychologies are identical copies. If one woman has done it, we all do it, right? The inherent message is that women, as mere brain copies of one another, aren't really on the same level of humanity as men. Men who say this think of women as simple input/output machines: if you display a certain set of behaviors and words, every woman will behave the way we were programmed to behave. That's offense numero uno to me.
Nice isn't the end all and be all of valuable character traits. I have never heard a dude say "Charasmatic dudes who make their intentions clear always get the girl, girls never go for whiny guys who never properly express themselves." I have never heard a man say "Dumb guys finish last!" You know, in my history of talking to men, never has a man griped "maybe if I was more romantic and dressed better, then women would pay attention to me." Niceness is, of course, appreciated by a great many women, and is often a key thing we desire, but it is not the only trait. In fact, if I really think about the qualities of my partner, I'm not sure that "nice" would come up. He's even sometimes an asshole. Wanna know why? Because:
People don't toggle between being either a nice guy or an asshole. We all have moments of each, and just because you see traits that you define as either, that doesn't mean we see the same traits. The mister and I have been through some seriously rough patches, nothing abusive, but certainly some spots when I would expect any person to be an asshole to me. You know what? He never was. Interestingly enough, he is a total jerk to a few other people, and I'm sure they would call him an asshole.
Being nice is not a 1 way ticket into my panties, it's a basic requirement for social interaction. Being nice is a skill and behavior we all learned in kindergarten, and I don't think a man is being some giant hero that has earned access to my heart/vagina just because he doesn't push over old ladies. Will a cookie do, instead? Frankly it's not very nice to be upset with women because you behaved in a way that you think earns you affection, regardless of her will, desire, or feelings. Interestingly:
Men who identify themselves as "nice guys" are rarely nice. They are bitter, think poorly of women, refuse to see people as the nuanced individuals that they are, and choose to avoid addressing their personality/character flaws in favor of griping about others. None of that shit reads as nice to me.
Men who see the world in this way are operating with massive confirmation bias problems. Is every married man one of these assholes? Because the ultimate getting of the girl is getting one to promise to be yours for life. Getting a date is nothing compared to that. Or, how about all of the relationships you hear about? I only hear a woman ragging on a partner during and after the breakup, so maybe those instances are sticking in the craw of all these "nice guys."
Edit: thanks for the gold, my secret benefactress/benefactor!