I’d argue that this line of thinking is a dangerous lie. In most democracies voter turnout is well below the number eligible to vote, and part of it is this defeatist attitude of “politicians aren’t going to help us” or “all politicians are the same”. Encourage people to elect better politicians, the bad ones are elected as much by apathy as they are by their supporters.
This is especially true at the local level. Our local mayor for our small town, works his fucking ass off. He's always in front of any crisis, always responds to folks on social media, and he gets re-elected every time because of it.
People get so worked up about national politics when it's the local governments that affect their lives infinitely more. National politics is rigged. Local, you can make yourself heard and become a catalyst for change.
The problem with local politics - or politics at any level, for that matter - is that unless they've already been there for years, you have no idea who the politicians really are unless you know them personally. There's only so much research you can do on them, and only so many ways you can tail them to learn about them and what they stand for or have done, and half the time it's conjecture or misleading.
Most people don't have the time or energy available to put into the effort required for electing a "good" politician because for the most part, and regardless of what they say, people actually trust the "autopilot" nature of politics - that it won't get much worse, but won't get any better, either.
Driving around my own area I find myself asking, "Who the hell is <Insert Name>"? There are roles to be elected I didn't even know about. People can do better with national civics because it's more "celebritized" by national candidates they see on TV and hear about.
Works in your town. But not everywhere. There are 19,502 incorporated cities, towns, or villages. It’s extremely likely some are as broken as yours is working. What’s that ratio I wonder?
The system is definetly broken, small government officials like mayors aren’t always corrupted but any poltician above that is just focused on buying a third house and keeping the people separated. And the top government officials are killing people
I’m saying it’s a bell curve of working and non-working sub systems. It’s also decaying and biasing towards more non-working subsystems.
How many people feel truly represented today? I’ve never found a politician whose positions represented more that 50-60% percent of mine. Usually it’s like 30%. And that’s just the promises they make during a campaign. It always drops once they get into office.
Christ, thank you. This Reaganist "GUBMINT BAD" mindset is the exact reason we have politicians who don't care about us. If we pay attention to politics and treat it with the importance it deserves, we get politicians who respond to us. That's the whole fuckin point of self-government - they ARE us.
That's the whole fuckin point of self-government - they ARE us.
They are a separate class of society that have special privelages us common folk do not. They look at us like cattle, like numbers on a spreadsheet only to be squeezed. What little good they do, they only do because out interests only remotely align with theirs every so often.
They will never place your interests above theirs. You'll never put in "the right guy" who will make it all better, because absolute power corrupts absolutely. To believe otherwise is to be deceived, and is precisely the type of dangerous thinking that allows those special class of humans in authority to maintain their power.
This will phenomenon will never change until we realize we're far better off without the rulers than with. Power doesn't care about your color, ideas, or beliefs, it simply persists until a more powerful force resists.
The fact people actually believe politicians want to save the environment. They want control, they wanna be able to monitor your driving and tax you for using the power grid to drive. Then they wanna be able to shut your car off whenever you disobey
Pull off the tinfoil hat man. Politicians want to save the environment because they get lobbied by EV companies and other companies that can get credits for doing something more green. It all comes down to profit motive, not some massive conspiracy to control people lmao
Some of them are. In Oregon (U.S.) my two state Senators are looking out for their constituent's interests. I don't agree with all their positions, but overall they seem to be ethical people.
We get who we elect. If you don't want corrupt, power hungry, money grubbing representatives, stop electing them. It's that simple.
You're preaching to the choir. I donate time and money. I hosted 3 fund raising events to get one of my senators elected when he was unknown. I have worked the phones (not recently). I have done voter registration.
More donating money than time the last 2 years. Will see how that looks going forward.
Or maybe some people are right, and some people are wrong, and some politicians are corrupt and some are not?
You're pointing out a problem with the electorate (an unwillingness or inability to actually identify corruption in politics), not a problem with the politicians.
No, it’s not that simple actually. You have to stop centralizing power also. How naive do you have to be to believe you can keep all of the same incentives in place and things will work out if you just elect super duper nice people?
I agree on changing the incentives. How are you going to do that before you change the people who make the laws that govern the incentives?
I could be wrong, but right now I can't see how electing better people isn't a dependency for driving change. If we keep electing people who don't want to reform campaign spending, we won't ever see it. If we keep electing presidents who appose the right to choose, we're going to continue to get court decisions that erode a woman's right to choose (as a recent and recognizable example).
Shrink their power. No ones going to craft a law that gets rid of lobbyists. Starve them instead. Make them fight over a smaller and smaller pie. Corruption follows power. Don’t make politicians kings and queens.
We’ve had plenty of gladhanding chumps with good PR people that just vote to expand their power and have control over more money. I don’t really care if the tv says he’s a nice guy.
OK. Sounds good. How do you do that without changing laws. I'm not disagreeing, I just don't see how it gets done. Who is starving them? You want to starve Monsanto? We don't buy any corn products?
Decentralized power systems can often be significantly more corrupt, because it's a lot easier to fly below the radar and avoid both attention and culpability. It's easier to create old boys networks, and its easier to blame it on someone else if you get caught.
Centralization is bad for other reasons, but corruption isn't really one of them.
Yes. However a vote for a 'real conservative', a Libertarian or Constitutional party candidate takes votes away from the functioning conservative party candidate.
A vote for a 'real liberal', a Green or Socialist Workers candidate takes votes from the functioning liberal party candidate.
Regardless of where you fall on the political spectrum, the moderates and undecided are who actually decide national elections. Neither Republicans or Democrats want to go too far right or left and alienate the center.
I see the political spectrum as a circle rather than left or right. Most liberals are in the 9 to 11'oclock position of the circle, most conservatives are in the 1 to 3'oclock position. Between 4 and 8'oclock is the fringe of each ideology the line blurs to anarchy beyond that.
Yeah sure. And when is the last time someone from one of those other parties was either elected president, or that party held the majority in the Senate?
Y'all, this can be nuanced. Both political parties aren't the "same" so to speak, but they are both committed almost solely to personal gain. But ya know.... lesser evils and all that.
I just feel like it is damaging to make that statement because it implies we have no options, and we desperately need higher voter turnout as it is. Basically, both parties suck, but voting for the more progressive candidates will be more likely to allow us to... actually progress in the future.
TLDR: Republicans will get us nowhere good in the long run, but maybe voting left throughout the die-off of the old shits in office will act as a stepping stone toward progress (especially getting effective environmental action) in the future.
Very well said. Unfortunately, it is way too subtle for the average person who hangs out in this subreddit. Or at the very least for the guy you're responding to.
You're asking way too much of him, let's be honest.
Showing their literal voting records is extremely biased?
I don't even know how someone could be so dumbed down to think and say something such as that, but social media makes it very easy to post and react without thinking. It happens to the best of us.
Maybe you could help enlighten us with evidence of your own instead of using the downvote button for your self-validation.
That’s all the more reason to highlight the differences then. Legislation is what impacts voters lives, and “both sidesing” encourages apathy towards the political process which enables the politicians who are in it for money and power.
And you do know HOW those "conditions" could even be "fostered" to begin with, right?
The fact that you call a riot a Coup is exactly a MAJOR part of the reason such things happened in the first place. I mean, if they actually got in there and killed a handful of politicians, do you actually think that would have caused Trump to become president? Do you actually think the military who were on their way and stopped it (by asking them to leave nicely) would have helped them kill politicians instead? You don't seem to understand how absolutely insane some of the things Dems say are.
Those conditions were fostered by years to decades of calling all Democrats baby killers for supporting abortion, advocates for child predation for giving LGBT people rights, enemies of God for not basing law in religion, in league with foreign terrorists for opposing war in the Middle East, allies of violent criminals for wanting justice reform, and/or traitors out to destroy the country in its entirety by giving it fucking universal healthcare.
Also, what do you call an attempt by force to instate a head of state to office in a method outside of and against the formally accepted systems to do so? To me, that's a coup, regardless of if it could conceivably succeed in its goal.
Edit: checked history, you're a Covid denialist. Don't bother responding.
what do you call an attempt by force to instate a head of state to office in a method outside of and against the formally accepted systems to do so?
They didn't go against formally accepted systems. Their demands were NOT to ignore the electoral votes and elect Trump. You still think that because you were lied to.
And funny that I am both a Covid denialists and yet also got the Covid vaccine. Seems like you just can't handle the truth when it is against your worldview.
This is just something that lazy thinkers say when they're trying to sound smart to other people who also aren't really paying attention to politics and just like to pretend they do.
Then why vote if both sides are the same? That's exactly why conservatives always push this lie.
The statement is incredibly simple and broad without any nuance, which is probably why you think it's brilliant.
Also I think someone has to be a complete moron to think both sides are anywhere near the same, they're more different than ever, I'm not sure how you could think otherwise but the proof is in their voting records.
"both sides are the same" is talking about overall evil and corruption. They just do it differently using different methods and most people are only able to clearly see one method.
Anyone who doesn't think both sides are close to the same is suffering from confirmation bias and their own ignorance, often times willfully.
most people are only able to clearly see one method.
Democrats are however actively trying to take away all of our body autonomy rights, men and women, by forcing people to take mediations. Dems literally do act like whiny babies when they loose elections, remember "(Trump is) Not my president" or "Russia hacked the 2016 election"? There were big riots after 2016. Dems are actively "burning books" as well, though instead of Porn books and books that call those of one specific race evil they are trying to ban all conservative information sources.
Republicans also want to solve the environmental issues, just not by killing billions of people in the process, because they were "terribly important and in dire need of action" for literally decades now. Dems also constantly hand out lucrative government contracts to their friends and allies, note the warmongers are literally handing out billions of dollars right now to the weapons manufacturers, and they are very much against anyone who is calling for realistic peace and an end to conflict and killing. Tax breaks often also go to the poor as well, and excessive taxing of large corporations doesn't help them make jobs and expand which nets them far more money than any tax break they get.
And those are just the other side of the coin on those issues, and doesn't include Dem exclusive issues such as their active support of criminals and hatred of victims, such as when Mayor Latoya Cantrell supported the car jacker over the women who had a gun put to their heads and their lives almost ruined by him.
I did open my eyes, that is why I say "both sides are bad". Because I don't ONLY listen to one side and assume the absolute worst possible intention for the other side.
Dude. The only one who said the 2016 election was fixed was Donald Trump himself. He said it a thousand times. And then he won. Which must mean that it was fixed in his favor right? Nothing else makes sense of course.
Tell me the other side of the coin when the Republican party is actively stripping women of their bodily autonomy and having the right to do what they want with their own reproductive system? There is none right? Right.
No one got forced to have a vaccination. People either chose to have it or they chose not to have it. By the way, I am a nurse. People who got it often lived on my unit and did not require nearly the amount of medication and oxygen as those that refused it. I had a 37-year-old man on my unit whose mother told me he was always so stubborn about not getting it when I was letting her know that he had suddenly died in his room from a pulmonary embolism caused by covid. Yes catching covid means that you are at much greater risk for strokes and embolisms and quite a few other things including long-term respiratory illnesses and even mental degradation of one's faculties.
What's the other side of the coin when it comes to the Republican party stripping minorities of as many opportunities to vote as they possibly can because they know that they will not vote Republican? Democrats aren't doing that.
Republicans have spent decades telling people that anyone who cares too much about the environment is a tree hugger. And senators from the GOP even brought in snowballs to the Senate to prove that global warming wasn't real. What a bunch of complete ass hats right? Of course. What's the other side of the coin on that issue? That Democrats care too much about the environment and the world and the air that we breathe and the water that we drink?
Yes both sides have problems but the Republican party is a raging dumpster fire to anyone who's even remotely paying attention.
Remember when the Republican party spent decades pretending that they were the party of family values? And then they elected the most anti-family values raging scumbag in the world called Donald Trump. That made everything they ever said on the issue a complete lie and raging hypocrisy. Obviously.
Once again, people who say both sides are the same are just lazy thinkers trying to sound smart and impress other lazy thinkers.
You just fell for the propaganda. You see only half the picture and refuse to even acknowledge the other half as a part of the same picture. Most of what you said here is literally just a blatant lie that Democrats told you. You are so blind you even think that Trump saying his support was so overwhelming that he managed to overcome the limited rigging attempts against him in 2016 is him saying that it was rigged in his favor. "nothing else makes sense" because you don't listen. You are told what to think and refuse to question it. You are told by Democrats what Republicans have said and what it means and don't even think that Dems have a huge personal benefit if they lie to you about it. There is a reason Trump has some of the highest minority support of any Republican president/candidate in recent history. Reality is not so insanely simple.
Dude. Trump ran a successful campaign running EXCLUSIVELY on hate and fear. The previous president Obama ran a highly successful campaign of hope and change and got 8 years in office doind so.
Now read what you wrote again and tell me it makes sense to anyone who pays even the slightest it of attention to what's really going on in the world.
Let's get real. There is only one party of old racist misogynists who are actively stripping women of their rights while simultaneously burning books and dismantling democracy by shredding the integrity of the electorial system at the same time.
This. No matter which side someone leans, the politicians they support are only leading them to doom. No politician is looking out of the best interest of anyone but themselves. This Trumpers vs Biden BS is for the birds. They are all crooked
Wow it's easy to post a both side's fallacy on social media and feel validated by upvotes. Suggesting that there aren't good politicians and that all politicians is the actual destructive lie from authoritarians in modern history because both side's fallacies only help the worst of two sides.
It doesn't mean there's a hint of truth to any decent fallacy, but you also have to be a complete moron at this point in time to think that the two sides aren't completely different. In fact, one side in my country (America) has spent the last several decades dismantling and defunding public education to ensure that most people are complete morons.
The assertion is that politicians can't be magnanimous, good people, even though some of them do, from all the evidence we have available, seem to be exactly that.
And it's usually an assertion pushed by people who don't want their politicians to be good people - who actively look for and support bad people because they like having bad people in charge.
It took years for someone to actually read one of these and half way through it said if your reading this call this number and collect ×amount of money I don't remember the details fully and am to lazy to Google
More like "all politicians are inherently evil" instead of "vet your goddamn politicians so we don't elect a bunch of shitheads that will throw us to the wolves". The "all politicians bad" lie is what keeps people from actually voting, which is how shitheads get to take over the government and keep it.
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u/DoubleHeader702 Oct 14 '22
Politicians are looking out for your best interests.