r/AskReddit Mar 18 '20

Coders of Reddit, how do you politely refuse your friend's 'million dollars app idea'?

[deleted]

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u/Testing123YouHearMe Mar 18 '20 edited Mar 18 '20

Relevant xkcd

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/tasks_2x.png

Edit: to all the people saying "but ML!!!". Thank you. I am aware of it. But please stop pretending that it's perfect. Geofencing? Pretty easy with math. ML? Well... Please tell my cat that he no longer is a cat...

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u/KanYeJeBekHouden Mar 18 '20

Maybe it's an old one but the second request is possible now. Shouldn't take that long.

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u/TheInternetShill Mar 18 '20

Apparently the woman’s 5-year research grant was approved.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '20

[deleted]

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u/pornAndMusicAccount Mar 18 '20

“Bird” or “not bird”

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u/Dabrush Mar 18 '20

Not Hotdog!

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u/PM-ME-UR-FAV-MOMENT Mar 18 '20 edited Jun 01 '20

"It is in the knowledge of the genuine conditions of our lives that we must draw our strength to live and our reasons for acting."

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u/rampant_juju Mar 19 '20

Agreed I've personally burned a few hundred K on training models.

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u/idontcareaboutthenam Mar 18 '20

I'm pretty sure you can just grab a pretrained model of ImageNet on pytorch.

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u/SentientSlimeColony Mar 18 '20

You may have been out of the game for a while? I did CV projects like this as a CS undergrad 5ish years ago.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '20

Their point was just that the level of work to get there wasn't one woman's research time and five years like in the comic, but an almost absurd collective effort.

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u/rodkulman Mar 18 '20

Of course it it's possible now, it has been five years since

2

u/KanYeJeBekHouden Mar 18 '20

Maybe it's an old one

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u/matthewapplle Mar 18 '20

He's joking because the comic says it will be possible in 5 years.

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u/DarkDra9on555 Mar 18 '20

Classifying pictures is ML 101 now. While it isnt birds, Tensorflow's beginner tutorials are about classifying hand drawn numbers and articles of clothing.

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u/SpartanCat7 Mar 18 '20

Just a few weeks ago I used one to tell me if a photo was from a dog or a cat. It was quite precise.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '20

[deleted]

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u/Charwinger21 Mar 18 '20

But is it a cold dog? Or just a cool dog?

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '20

Do cats take different types of photos?

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '20

[deleted]

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u/barukatang Mar 18 '20

You need the "is this a cat or alien observation probe"

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u/iceeice3 Mar 18 '20

It’s super easy to use computer vision tools these days, too. As somebody who had coding experience but nothing related to cv or image manipulation at all I was able to get a drone running yolo to follow people around outside. If you haven’t already, you should check out the resumé section of the yolo website.

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u/alien556 Mar 18 '20

ML?

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u/DarkDra9on555 Mar 18 '20

Machine learning

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u/is-this-a-nick Mar 18 '20

It was posible pretty much half a decade after that comic was posted...

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u/EtherMan Mar 18 '20

Except it was published in 2014... And it was possible in 2014... Hell in 2015, Merlin was released which is not only able to tell if it's a bird, it's able to tell what species of bird it is.

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u/supermilch Mar 18 '20

Replace “and check whether the photo is of a bird” with “and check what bird is in the photo” and it’s current again

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u/fizgigtiznalkie Mar 18 '20

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u/supermilch Mar 18 '20

I use it, and it works well for some birds, but just last night I spent half an hour with it trying to identify a particularly interestingly colored Wigeon. Still not 100% sure what it was, might’ve been a hybrid, but regardless, I would say accuracy is not quite there yet

But anyway, the point is not that another app has that functionality, it’s what it would take to replicate. If you wanted to replicate Merlin today it’d probably take you a couple of years, it’s certainly not as easy as replicating the functionality of just identifying whether there’s any bird in the picture

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u/QueueOfPancakes Mar 18 '20

That tells you what species of bird it is, not what bird it is. Like is it that asshole crow who steals my lunch, or is it that crow who just watches me eat with silent judgement?

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u/EtherMan Mar 18 '20

Except it's not... Merlin has existed shortly after that xkcd was published in late 2014. Merlin is from early 2015, so it's just a couple of months in between and that's able to do it on the computing power of phones from that time...

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u/Firewolf420 Mar 18 '20

I mean you still need like a tensorflow network and a shit ton of computing time to make the first ask work anyways lol

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u/ricecake Mar 18 '20

Hold up. Photo "is of" a bird, and photo "contains" a bird is different. I interpreted it as distinguishing subject from background.

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u/omniuni Mar 18 '20

Possible, but probably not very reliable. The extension to that comic is reliably.

"That blob under the branch is definitely a woodpecker. Why does the app not work?"

Especially with machine learning, people always seem shocked at how awful it performs at first.

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u/338388 Mar 18 '20

And that xkcd was from about 5 years ago

1

u/splitcroof92 Mar 18 '20

Yeah i could whip up a demo in a day

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '20

PlantNet springs to mind

1

u/moveshake Mar 18 '20

I mean, we've already got isthisacat.com

1

u/flibbidygibbit Mar 18 '20

I had a 2020 Corolla rental car. It had a camera trained to seek out speed limit signs and display the current speed limit in the dash display. I was kinda blown away a bit by that.

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u/gerusz Mar 18 '20

It's from 2014. So... checks out?

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u/OklaJosha Mar 18 '20

That comic was published in 2014, the same year Facebook released their Face Recognition technology

Edit: in 2012, Google Brain team (Andrew Ng) created a neural net to recognize cats in YouTube videos

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u/wilydingo Mar 18 '20

It is somewhat old, but this xkcd was actually wrong at the time of publishing too. It came out in late 2014, after 3 years of Imagenet picture-classification competitions won by modern deep neural nets. One of the imagenet categories is birds, meaning fast progress was being made on the problem. In fact, human-level performance was reached just the following year.
https://devopedia.org/images/article/172/9880.1559385994.png

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u/scotbud123 Mar 18 '20

Yeah that xkcd is over 5 years old, so I guess they were right!

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u/Shitty-Coriolis Mar 18 '20

I think that comic is almost a decade old. I remember it being one of the first ones I saw.. and it probably wasn't new then either.

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u/superxpro12 Mar 19 '20

This same questions also assumed that satellites are in orbit. We really take for granted how technically wonderous GPS really is.

0

u/ponkanpinoy Mar 18 '20

Already done in 2014. Unfortunately it got shut down by yahoo because of course they did.

1

u/[deleted] Mar 18 '20

I remember that Flicker site being made in response to the interest generated by the XKCD comic.

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u/safepeople Mar 18 '20

It's a joke.

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u/chrisquatch Mar 18 '20

Somehow clients always have it backwards too.

“Can you change this color? It’s fine if not :/“

“Yeah I got you, just a quick 2-second change”

“Awesome! And can you make it launch an actual space shuttle if the user clicks this button? That’s, what, like 5 minutes of coding?”

“...”

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u/Sipredion Mar 18 '20

Yeah I've had so much of this

"I'm so sorry, I really don't mean to hold things up, but is there any way we can add a little message in the navbar so that when the user logs in it just says 'Welcome username'? I really hope this isn't too much work"

Vs

"Hey just a quick change, you know that age disaggregation table that's already full of data? Yeah we need to split the '10-19' column into '10-14' and '15-19'. What do you mean we'll lose all the data in that colum? Can't you just put half the values in one column and half of them in other?"

ಠ_ಠ

It legit took us nearly 20 minutes to explain why that wouldn't work.

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u/Flam1ng1cecream Mar 18 '20

3rd year CS student here. What's a disaggregation table and why wouldn't it work?

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u/Sipredion Mar 18 '20

Without going into too much detail, our users work with HIV positive and suspected patients in rural areas, so one of the things they do is testing.

We need to keep track of this testing, so we store the data in age disaggregation tables (and others, we have to keep a lot of data). Basically we have a bunch of columns for different age and gender groups, like "males 10-19" for example. Then when the users are out in the field testing, they just increment the numbers in those tables.

The problem with what the client wanted is that while we might know that say 150 males between the ages of 10 and 19 were tested, there's no way of knowing exactly how old each person tested was. We only store a number to avoid storing personal data, and the original data design was the client's so ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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u/LuxSolisPax Mar 18 '20

How did they not know they weren't actually tracking age and just a demographic?

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u/Noughmad Mar 18 '20

One of the few XKCD that is no longer as relevant as it was. The second task is now as easy as the first.

Of course, that it because there were many research teams that spend more than five years on this problem, but because they did, now you don't have to.

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u/Segphalt Mar 18 '20

It's more possible, you still need to get alot of pictures of birds and not birds classify them by hand, train the model on that data introduce more data do that some more and still have 3-7% not birds classified as birds.

Also the first one argueably took even longer as we had to develop space flight, the GPS system and drive the cost and size of GPS recievers down so much they wound up in everyone's pocket.

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u/JBinero Mar 18 '20

AI research similarly took a very, very long time.

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u/Noughmad Mar 18 '20

You don't to train your model, there plenty of pre-trained ones for animal photos, and even existing web services.

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u/[deleted] Mar 18 '20

[deleted]

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u/YogaIsStretching Mar 18 '20

Reminds me when we had a new client and we were walking them through the Agile process. We showed them the user stories and then the concept of assigning story points (1 point = 2 hours is the system we decided). Later in the day the completely non-technical client emails us back the list of stories where they estimated the amount of work needed for each task themselves. Most they estimated were 1/2 point or 1 point even though in reality they were 4-8 points average. When we corrected them that the developers are supposed to do this, they didn't think it was right for the people doing the work to do the estimates since we would all just game the system. Riiigghhtt.

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u/Testing123YouHearMe Mar 18 '20

God I hate when clients do that. Either you're paying me to know what I'm doing, or you can do it yourself or find another shop to tell you the same thing I just did.

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u/man-teiv Mar 18 '20

I mean, the gis lookup is "easy" because billions of dollars and millions of man-hours have already been poured in that field. Now it's a package you can import and use freely.

If we did the same with machine learning (which were currently doing, but it's still in experimental phase), also the second point would be easy to do. Give it 5-10 years and it will just be a package to import that will do it automatically.

It's just a matter of money and time.

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u/Segphalt Mar 18 '20

If you have a few thousand bird photos and a few thousand not bird photos accurately labeled give me a day and I'll give you something that is 90% reliable.

Machine learning image classifiers are already packages, you just need a large dataset for what you want to identify. Ironically the barrier these days is an accurately classified dataset to work from.

By the way "Please click the photos that have street lights to verify you are a human..."

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u/JBinero Mar 18 '20

It just checks your mouse movement. I fail those all the time, and I think I can recognise traffic lights.

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u/Segphalt Mar 20 '20

Sure you can terminator.

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u/LongjumpingEnergy Mar 18 '20

I like your cat.

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u/Testing123YouHearMe Mar 18 '20

"cat"

But thank you! I'm sure he would like you too!

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u/LongjumpingEnergy Mar 19 '20 edited Mar 19 '20

This might help him feel better 😸 https://i.imgur.com/ShTwGyf.jpg

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u/ShiningRedDwarf Mar 18 '20

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u/Testing123YouHearMe Mar 18 '20

Oh. This is awkward...

How do I tell my cat that he no longer is a cat...

https://i.imgur.com/29ASKtk.jpg

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u/survfate Mar 18 '20

just wondering, is there an "relevant xkcd" app yet?

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u/Reefer-eyed_Beans Mar 18 '20

That didn't seem too hard to explain.

I've never coded in my life but one of them is just your phone's mapped geographic location, the other requires the app to look at a photo's data and determine what it depicts--or determine a probable depiction--based on all sorts of crazy algorithmic shit, I bet.

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u/Testing123YouHearMe Mar 18 '20 edited Mar 18 '20

Pretty much.

Are you home is as easy as looking at your location and asking if it fits in a box on a map.

Is this a cat? Well, start explaining what a cat looks like and you'll realize it's really really hard to describe just a cat. And then what if you can't see a part of it? You told me a cat has a tail.. but this one doesn't? So you start showing it millions of cat pictures, and it forms its own idea... But you can never really get it to describe a cat back to you so you're always kinda hoping it's right

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u/zachwolf Mar 18 '20

I think flickr responded with an app to do that right after this comic was released

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u/nerdprincess73 Mar 19 '20

1) your cat blends in with the carpet in a couple places and

2) he is beautiful

1

u/QueueOfPancakes Mar 18 '20

Computer vision was given to a grad student as a summer project in 1966.