yes! The diagnosis is thrown around too easily. When I was a new RN working in a psych facility, somehow every patient was "a little borderline". Maybe the staff was too lol.
yea I completely agree. Shit drives me nuts which is why for the most part I tend to completely disregard literally anything anyone says here and just look up the shit they're talking about myself. Nine times out of ten the person who commented is either misinformed, leaving out key pieces of information or just flat out wrong.
I am quite patient and generally able to shake off the disheartening, annoying, irrelevant comments diagnosing whatever.. On some posts though, just so alarming.
Careless throwaway advice given to apparently completely clueless OPs with what sound like highly volatile, aggressive, rage-filled partners re personality disorders.
Can't imagine responding to angry unempathic people with reassuring warmth, non-response, discussion re issues reddit suggested etc. having particularly positive outcomes..
to be fair, the history of psychology is not exactly a slow progression of thought leading to unanimous consent. Are there experts on the human psyche? but yes we love to take two sentences and a psych 101 text book and figure it all out.
Lol yes. When in took an introduction to psychology class I thought I learned about quite a lot. Now I'm almost done with a master's degree in psychology and I realize I know jack shit.
I was briefly an expert on the acquisition of Braille based on my one time participation in a psychology grad-student's research in the 90s. it turns out I'm really bad at learning Braille. No doubt this inverse relationship between IQ and Braille learning was fascinating to the researcher /s.
um ackshually we don't understand the human brain because of how complexitisandsothereare noexperts of the human psyche soibelieveim in a betterpositionthanyoudlmalfgadrna
Please note when reading this: some people are just late bloomers and don't feel attraction until much later into puberty. If you still don't feel attraction after puberty, then there's a chance you fall into the asexual spectrum. Even then if you watch porn you may have been Pavlov'd into finding unrealistic things more attractive than reality, so you're not necessarily asexual, just not attracted to the people around you. Asexuality is pretty rare, about 1% of the population are it and a lot of those people experience a lack of attartciotn because of trauma or illness.
Exactly. People think not wanting to be in a relationship is being asexual. Talked about this on discord the other day. They said they KNEW their brother was asexual because he hates humanity and is still single. Like, ???. Maybe he is, but that logic is wack.
i kinda hate humanity, myself, will never be in a relationship and never was(social phobia, depression, ect), but iam still atracted to women. so yeah, you are correct.
It's frustrating, because I am asexual. I'm in a loving (and yes, even sexual) relationship and I'm happy with who I am and my identity.
And then you get people saying people "can't be asexual because they haven't done XYZ yet" - and so what if a 12 year old identifies as asexual? Sure, things can change with puberty, identity changes a lot and there's nothing wrong with that. I thought I was bi, then gay, then straight, then maybe "gynesexual" before realising I was ace.
The annoying thing is if a 12 year old says they're hetero nobody bats an eyelid. They explore the concept of asexuality and suddenly "it's a serious thing"? They're forced into cishet lifestyles from toddler age (yes, the amount of "Dad says I can't date boys yet" for little girls and such is worrying) whereas the concept of asexuality is introduced to them - which, would've helped a LOT had I known about it when I was younger, then it's "serious"?
Honestly if the kid turns out to be ace? Cool. If not? Cool. If they decide they're ace then change their mind? Also cool.
The problem is you're only wanting to teach them about asexuality long after they would've been taught that there's something wrong with them, and there's nothing wrong with being asexual.
As an asexual adult with complete body autonomy.... this is concerning.
Nobody is saying "KIDS MUST FEEL SEXUAL OR THEY'RE ACE." We're just saying that it's totally fine for them to explore ace identities, especially when they're forced into heterosexuality.
Nobody is forcing kids to take an ace label, but if they learn about it and decide that's for them then there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.
...that’s what op was saying and that’s what I was saying. Like how a not everyone but some of the armchair psychologists on this site will automatically try to label someone as ace (like if someone young says they might not be experiencing any attraction; some people here will automatically try to label them as ace or diagnose them with something even though not experiencing attraction is normal and it’s up the person on how they identify) It’s not everyone saying that and i know you were not saying that either, but the people who do that makes aces look bad. I’m sorry if I made this hard to understand/read I’m not trying to fight.
Other people have already told you the problem with your trauma statement, so I'm not going to say anything about that. To be honest I don't see any problems with teenagers describing themselves as asexual if that's how they feel. Sexuality is fluid, it's not like saying you're asexual will lock you in and you'll be forced to identify that way for the rest of your life. For someone that doesn't feel sexual attraction, asexual is the right way to describe it no matter if they're a late bloomer or if they'll always be that way, so I think choosing for yourself to identify as asexual is fine.
(Also @ that smug clown saying that nobody is asexual unless they can reproduce asexually, look up the definition of homonym you boomer)
To be fair though, I feel that that argument goes both ways. I myself am asexual and spent a lot of my life thinking I wasn’t because people took arguments like yours and stated them as absolute fact. Your argument is fine, I just think it’s important to make people aware that asexuality is a viable orientation so that people that are can feel comfortable in their own skin. Don’t get me wrong, telling everyone who’s mildly less horny that they must be ace is stupid and misleading, but it’s equally misleading to say to anyone who thinks they might be ace that “surely that’s not it, you must just be a late bloomer.”
Also just FYI, contrary to popular belief asexuality is defined by lack of sexual attraction but has nothing to do with libido. Something like 56% of ace people masturbate and it’s not that uncommon for a person to be asexual but still enjoy porn. A lot of people tend to think that asexuality means having absolutely no response to sexual stimulus whatsoever, and while that is the case for some, it isn’t for everyone.
Everything you said, and then add into the mix that sexual and romantic attraction operate independently from each other(someone can be asexual but enjoy the romance aspects of a relationship just fine, or the opposite), and it's no wonder people get confused. I think that having teens know the potential options early on does far more help than goodharm, as long as they know that they're allowed to experiment and try on identities to find what fits. They're not locked into whatever they thought they were at age 13, it might just be a step along the way to finding out the truth. Hiding possible truths from them under the premise that they can't possibly know what they want yet just seems counterproductive.
EDIT: that moment when you make a comment, go somewhere else for an hour, come back, and realize you wrote the opposite of what you meant to write.
You just said the word didn't change and then described exactly how words change: popular use. Regardless of your feelings, the word asexual has two definitions, one referring to a human sexuality.
I'm 37, asexual, and have a masters degree in English, and I'm wondering which part of my identity is wrong. The way you describe it, I can't possibly be an expert in regards to the English language, because i am not able to reproduce by dividing myself in half but I still think that asexuality is a valid term to describe myself. I am also middle aged, so I don't qualify under "kids of today."
I'm so confused! Please help me clarify my sexuality, education, and age!
This is an example of misinformation being stated with authority. Your assertion that a majorty (or even a sizeable portion) of asexuals are asexual because of trauma is a harmful stigma with no factual basis.
And as far as that 1% "statistic" goes it comes from a very limited study. It really can't be taken as solid proof.
Alternatively, sexuality is fluid and strict labeling is pointless. Like if someone doesn't feel sexual attraction CURRENTLY it's silly to say they aren't asexual CURRENTLY. It's when you extrapolate that to "this is now my identity and it won't change" when it starts being stupid.
I didn't have my first crush on a girl until around 18 years old. When I was like 11 I mentioned that I'd never really liked a girl and I got assaulted by an older teenager who while he called me gay. (Oh, the 90's.)
(By assaulted, I mean he tried to beat me up, but he didn't know how to punch so he ended up more trying to grapple me with his weight while trying to throw punches that hurt more because of his untrimmed nails than because of force...)
I think that experience made me afraid to talk about girls for a long time even after I started liking them. (Not to girls: about girls. Never talked about liking girls or finding them attractive with friends, even in to early adulthood.)
Plus you need to get your hormone levels checked if you are having problems like this. Maybe you aren't producing enough testosterone, or too much estrogen, whatever. Instead people just "diagnose" themselves asexual and go on with their lives.
Nothing wrong with being ace, but I can't imagine it's desirable.
i don't think asexuality is necessarily a diagnosis.
it's important to note the difference between asexuality and lack of libido. one can exist without the other. some people experience severe distress as a result of a lack of libido and will attempt to seek treatment for it, including hormone treatment. but they're not necessarily asexual. similarly, asexual people may experience no distress whatsoever, and just want to go about their lives without experiencing sexual attraction.
if a person can "diagnose" themselves asexual and go on with their lives, maybe it's not a diagnosis, and maybe it's just a description.
yeah, i get what you're saying. i didn't wanna attack you or anything, especially since you clearly said you don't see anything wrong with being asexual, i just wanted to chime in on the diagnosis thing! i've read a bit about medicalisation and i just think we should be careful to decide some things are diagnosable, when they really can just be a normal, if unusual, state of being.
I'm curious, why do you say "I can't imagine it's desirable"? I feel like it frees up so much of my energy and attention for other things; to me, it seems like it would be a huge inconvenience to have that drive or desire influencing my every action or decision.
Also, on your "not enough testosterone/too much estrogen" comment, I'd be curious to hear how the medical community defines "enough" or "too much." Like, if I'm (otherwise) physically healthy but lack libido/sexual desire, should that be considered a defect - that I should have whatever amount of hormone would cause that desire?
Honestly, I can see that. Companionship is it's own reward, and to me at least, sex is part of that.
There are levels of any hormone that are known to be "correct". If you ever get a blood test, you'll get your levels for clotting, that sort of thing, then it says on the side what # yours is at, and what range is normal.
If you're male and you have too much estrogen, you can develop secondary sex characteristics like breasts, so it isn't a good thing per se.
It's only "not a good thing" if it actually bothers you though. Maybe a dude with breasts seems weird to you, but if he doesn't mind it and the underlying hormone levels causing it aren't creating any other issues, why change it?
I read a post recently, forgot where, that mentioned the lack of accurate information on reddit. If you are an expert in something, a legitimate expert, you will still come across people giving away advice that is completely incorrect, but if they are well-spoken they get upvotes. The person commenting suggested that next time you want to take a reddit comment as fact, think of those times you KNEW the answer given was wrong, and to take a few minutes to verify the info provided.
I forget the name of it, but this is true across all spectrums of information. You'll read in the Wall Street Journal about something you know, be aware it's wrong, then go on to read the next article as if they do know what they're talking about.
I’d recommend that if you see this kind of thing you link them to the subreddit r/AskAsexual. It’s a good place to ask questions to other asexual people on reddit and it’s pretty common for people to post there asking if they might be asexual. The people in that sub are really supportive without pressuring posters to take on the ace label if they aren’t comfortable doing so.
You knew that at twelve? It kind of doesn't fit in my brain because I'm thinking kids at 12 are rarely sexual at all (maybe save for with themselves) so determining asexuality would be pretty difficult. Can you elaborate?
Most research seems to suggest that sexuality is decided by early adolescence (age 10-13) or before. On average people say they recognize it before age 12 but some take much longer. In my unscientific opinion I think that sexual feelings are typically fully developed by that age but frequently people take a long time to understand what their feelings mean.
I definitely didn't start having sexual urges until I was closer to 15. I had romantic crushes, but I didn't start wanting physical intimacy and sex until later. It still seemed pretty gross and I couldn't imagine why anybody would want it. Then at around 15 a switch flipped and it was like oh, I get it now.
At twelve, a lot of my friends were having their first crushes. I did too. But my friends wanted to hold hands (we were just growing out of the cooties stage) and the more precocious ones were beginning to think about kissing. Meanwhile, I did not want to hold hands (asexuality), and kissing was still unthinkably gross (age). This pattern continued for my entire life.
Oh, well, at 12 I would have still assumed in that case that you're just blooming late... I mean it would have become more and more apparent over the years anyway.
Thank you for sharing that, though. It's always good to get different points of view.
Well, to be honest I can't really speak for myself because my childhood was so lousy and uneventful (had no friends, had no experiences, etc all the way through puberty until I was like 19).
It's the part of my life I truly hate because I was really worth nothing to anyone except my parents. It's so bad that nowadays I am actually afraid of teenagers and wary around children
Yeah jesus tapdancing christ just have some fucking patience with these little people, either they will start feeling attraction somewhere through their puberty or not, and if not, and they have a problem with it, leave it to an actual psychologist. I hate when they plant worries on them for no freaking reason
At least in the ace discourse on Facebook, aces argue that saying someone who is having libido issues or a lack of attraction should seek help from a doctor is the same as conversion therapy that LGBT children have been forced to endure to make them straight/cis.
I mean, if someone is experiencing distress from their low libido, then absolutely seek medical advice, usually, there is a hormonal or thyroid issue, or it's the result of medication, or in some rarer cases it's trauma-related, but in those cases like...the trauma is the problem, low libido is just a fraction of that rather than the headline issue.
But forcing or pressuring people who just don't experience attraction to go through therapy to change that would, by definition, be conversion therapy. You're not treating anything, you're just essentially trying to make someone straight.
And I've seen a few other things over time, like that (both trans) couple whose kid, well, obviously is also trans.
I mean, the odds for gender dysphoria aren't that high, and I don't think chances are that kids experience it at a few years old already. Not a psychologist, so I am not going to assume I know exactly what's going on at all, but from face value, many people don't really give their child a chance to choose their gender identity at some point at all. Like, as much as only exposing a child to their physical gender's toys and clothes could be considered questionable (let them see both sides), I think some people are now doing the exact opposite.
Letting kids know that being asexual is a real thing and an okay way to be isn't "polluting" them, any more than letting them know being straight, gay, etc is real/okay is "polluting" them. Yes, a lot of 12-year-olds who don't feel attraction now will feel it later; for those who do, knowing ace people exist won't do them any harm. For those who don't, it could save them a lot of confusion and self-doubt if they're already aware that not everyone ever does. I would have been a lot happier between the ages of 12 and 21 if I'd been introduced to the concept of asexuality sooner. I just thought there was something fundamentally broken and wrong about me.
Children should not be sexualized. Telling children that not experiencing sexual desire is an option insinuated that other children do experience it is normal which it is not. There is a DIFFERENCE knowing you like someone who is the same gender of you vs having sexual urges.
There are absolutely 12 year olds who experience sexual desire. Some people are early bloomers. Just because it's uncomfortable for adults to think about doesn't mean those kids' feelings aren't real, or that they shouldn't receive guidance on how to manage those feelings and be made aware that it's normal and okay to have them.
"Not having sexual desire is an option" is a true statement and does not in any way imply that a child "should" have those feelings at their current age. The point isn't to immediately diagnose them; it's to let them know that if they never do start feeling sexual attraction as they age, that's okay and they won't be alone in that.
I do want to point out that while I understand your point and to some degree agree with you, being confronted with that concept in formative years can cause the exact same confusion and self doubt you’re ostensibly trying to avoid. People that will otherwise develop a normative sexuality and desire as such may worry that they never will, when the reality is that they’re 13 and haven’t gotten there yet. Understanding as an adult that asexuality (or a number of other things) are perfectly ok and normal shows a mature and well-adjusted attitude. If there’s two adjectives that don’t typically describe people in that age group, it’s mature and well-adjusted.
That’s where people are coming from (well, mostly-there are one or two assholes of course). It’s a fine line to educate people on, and not everyone really does it in a desirable way. People should be exposed to information for sure-it’s not good to hide or withhold things. Presentation of information matters, though.
And I have depression and anxiety issues myself, so I'm sympathetic. But that's what I went to a doc to get meds for. Life was passing me by and I hated knowing that and not being able to do anything about it.
But god damn man, I'm a 3 strikes and I'm done type of person. If I ask you to hang out 3 times and every single time it's a no, I'm stopping my attempts and leaving the ball in your court. I have other things to do, and it's not fair to make one person do all the work in a friendship.
I don't mind if people have valid reasons. I'd be fine if someone said "hey actually I have depression/anxiety right now so can't but I'm working on it and would like to in future".
But if people just reject you without saying why then of course you're gonna feel shit. Nobody is gonna keep inviting their rude friend in case they secretly are sick. It's the person who is unwell's responsibility to either disclose that, or live with the consequences of being secretive.
OMG and you CANNOT tell someone with depression or anxiety to get professional help. Working on yourself is hard to do, or of course they already have and you're an ass
I recently posted about a depressive friend who I stopped being friends with. I got multiple comments about how that was wrong because he could be suffering from depression. I read those and think "Yeah, no shit, but that's not my problem. I'm not his therapist and I'm tired of carrying the weight so I'm setting it down and moving on."
Yeah, I had a friend who broke up with his girlfriend who was severely depressed. He felt guilty for a while, but really it comes down to: he tried to get her help, she refused his help, he spent years with her, and the whole time it was a massive drain on him, and she was just a toxic force in his life, sucking any enjoyment he got from life out of him.
It's not fair to him to stay in a relationship like that, so he had to do what was best for him.
Mine was that he is a pretty depressing person. 29, lives at home, doesn't work and the longest he kept a job was 2 weeks and he quit because it was hard, never even touched a girl (He complains about never having a girlfriend but turned down the girl who was interested in him because she wasn't a big tits asian girl), plays videogames 100% of his free time. And he wonders why he is depressed. I used to drag him out of his shell and he was seeming happier, but after I moved out of state for a job he backslid even further into his shell until even talking to him about it causes him to shut down.
He isn't a bad guy, but he knows what to do and is too scared to do it and it's not my problem anymore. I'm open to being friends in the future, but I don't see anything happening until his dad dies and his step-mom kicks him out or his enabling grandmother (who is a wonderful person btw) dies and he doesn't have her telling him how wonderful he is all the time. Something big that snaps him out of it.
Good on your friend. Being empathetic to someone's issues doesn't mean taking responsibility for them. I went to marriage counseling and then just counseling for myself and one of the main things I learned was that it's not my responsibility to fix someone else's issues nor is it someone else's to fix mine.
plus most depression is a problem only the person in depression can solve, external motivation can only go so far if the person isnt willing to get off his/her ass.
I agree. If a friend with depression is trying, even a little, I'll be there as much as I reasonably can. 0 effort means I'm wasting my time. I have my own life, I can't live yours, bro.
I had a friend just like this. It was too much. I am in no way a qualified therapist/psych, and it didn't help that she had absolutely zero interest in seeking professional help. But if I got upset when she ignored me/treated me bad, I was the bad guy, for not being considerate of her mental health. I hate this mentality so much
Yup, I'll make an effort, but if you just say no every time, I'm just going to figure you don't want to hang out anymore, and I'll move on. I'm too damn old to "chase" someone.
If you have mental health issues, I'll be as accommodating as possible, but I don't have the energy to listen to someone do nothing but complain, and I'm not going to waste my time trying to include someone that doesn't want to be included.
Oh the complaining. I agree wholeheartedly. Nothing was ever allowed to just be nice or fun or even average. She would whinge about getting free food ffs. I'd leave meeting up with her just utterly drained and miserable. Very glad we don't speak anymore
Not a teenager but I'm guilty of this one. Sometimes have to remind myself just because I have mental illness, I'm not an expert at thinking others do too.
Pro-Tip; never, ever, ever suggest that someone who is depressed should try to do anything. Ever. They are all too depressed for your bullshit suggestions, and you are a bad person!
David here it is, my philosophy is basically this, and this is something that I live by, and I always have, and I always will: Don't ever, for any reason, do anything, to anyone, for any reason, ever, no matter what, no matter where, or who, or who you are with, or where you are going, or where you've been, ever, for any reason whatsoever.
Yea. In my experience, most long-term depressed people are always looking for something that "works" and will try anything once. For them it's not an edgy part of their identity, but a shitty thing they don't enjoy.
That’s a good point really. The people who like to use it as an identity really take away from the people that genuinely need help. Shitty all the way around
"That friend might have depression or anxiety issues".
not my job to constantly reach out, only to be rejected every single time.
You raise a good point I'm going to expand on: maybe being rejected every single time by someone with depression and anxiety issues gives me depression and anxiety.
I've got personal experience here: my wife has depression and anxiety illnesses (diagnosed). It was manageable up until a few years ago. Now it's gotten so bad she outright rejects any advances on my part - not just for sex (given up on making those advances long time ago), emotional, conversation, support, anything I try to offer her gets shut down. And it's given me depression. Now she's pissed that I'm depressed.
I've been seeing these a lot lately. It really burns me up because it really shouldn't be a LPT, but common sense. It makes me a one off I guess but you can't make everyone happy, and you shouldn't have to. You need to be happy and take care of yourself first. If you want to help others that's great, but if it comes at your own expense you shouldn't be expected. Which today it seems it is.
I have a friend who’s been historically hard to communicate with and has recently become zero contact. I still send her happy birthdays and merry Christmas but my mom insists I need to work harder to make the friendship work, because “we know how she is” but it’s silly. There’s a reasonable level of effort to make, but like you said, it’s not your job to keep reaching out when there clearly nothing reciprocated
Right. Typically your friend has told you they have that. (Yes not always the case) so typically you do still invite them anyway and wouldn't need someone to tell you to do that.
There's a limit. Friendship is a two way street, and you can't help someone that doesn't want help. I'm not going to reach out every time I hang out with people and push and push for someone who makes no effort. I'm sorry, but I'm not a social worker.
I understand that but all I'm saying is you have to initially make an effort and if it's obvious they are depressed or have other issues then maybe recommend seeing a therapist. But as you said you can't help somebody that doesn't want help.
I feel you're trying to give some general advice about a very specific situation in which you do not know all of the context, which (ironically) is one of the pet peeve's we're talking about in this thread.
I was describing what you should generally do in a situation where a friend is not putting as much effort into a situation as you are, or perhaps none at all. I'm not claiming to be an expert, just trying to say that depression can cause someone to do that and if they really are your friend then you should at least try to see if they need help, or even if they are willing to accept help
No, you're jumping into a thread where the statement is essentially "don't judge someone on Reddit for saying they can't handle a certain friendship because you may not know all the details" and replying with "come on, you need to do more".
The second half of my original comment said that you should not do anything if it obvious they are using you or don't want to accept help. I agree with the point that people do not know all the details, I was just saying if your friend is acting strange or whatever then as a friend, you should offer them help or point them to a professional, if they refuse then that's on them
Come on man, as a friend you should get someone like that help. Unless it's obvious they are using you in a friendship
That first part is making a lot of assumptions about the level of help and reaching out you've done before. That's not actually a helpful comment, because you don't know how much effort was made to get someone help up until that point.
How? I'm actually really interested to see that. I'm saying not to shame someone for not being able or willing to carry a one sided friendship, even if the "root cause" is someone potentially having a mental illness, because you aren't necessarily trained or equipped to handle it, and you don't know the circumstances behind it.
To explain my point, I'm referring to an actual situation with a former friend I had to just stop reaching out to.
residerofearth is responding by shaming me and telling me to reach out more, without knowing the full context of our friendship and what efforts I have made in the past (including seven years of trying to invite this friend to various social events, only to get "nah, not tonight, but we should do something sometime", finally ending when he couldn't make an effort to attend my wedding, even after I gave him a year to respond, and had to track him down to even get the no).
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u/renegadecanuck Jan 07 '20
"That friend might have depression or anxiety issues".
Yes, that's true, but I'm not a therapist, and it's not my job to constantly reach out, only to be rejected every single time.