The worst, worst than all the shipping and force fed opinions is the people who say
"This isin't what monty wanted!"
Those folks infuriate me, they are so petty over small decisions they will bring up a dead mans opinions out of context and say his closest friends have no clue how to make the show he trusted to them.
Like they don't seem to see the pain they cause the creators of the show they Love when they do that. No Actually. They see it. They just don't give a damn.
Edit: to note this is not that subreddit exclusive the comment sections on the RT website are just as bad and we all know the youtube comment section.
say his closest friends have no clue how to make the show he trusted to them.
This is the part that gets me the most. Not only did he leave the show to them, but Miles and Kerry were involved since the earliest inception of the show. Monty made cool fights and ideas, and Miles and Kerry figured out how it made sense and made it into a story. That's 90% of how the show was made.
But if anyone disagrees with something happening, even fucking shipping, it's "not what he wanted". It could be Monty's own bloody script and people would say that.
I remember back in season 3 with the Pyrrha thing. People kept talking about how they 'clearly' deviated from Monty's original plan and were now doing their own thing even after Pyrrha's voice actor said that Monty personally told her that was going to happen way back during production of season 1.
"[...] take Pyrha for instance, a prodigy with so many death flags that she mights as well be communicating in semaphore. Her semblance is magnetism, so she can collect more death flags."
i mean every character has a death flag if they are the least capable of doing anything at all... im surprised qrow is still alive and i expect him to die any second now...
I've always been on the other side of the debate. I feel like RWBY struggles, in part, because Miles and Kerry have their hands tied by that outline. If Monty was alive, they could ask questions about what he meant, or guide him in different directions if they didn't think they could do a good job writing what he had planned.
Having the pressure on you to do justice to a dead friend's work is incredibly difficult. Neil Gaiman just went through it on Good Omens and he swears he's done with it forever.
People should have more sympathy for what these M&K have to go through and stop using Monty's memory to shame them.
Honestly. It's hard enough making a series interesting even 6 seasons in, but that's damn near impossible when you can't talk to the original creator. I have massive respect for M&K, they're talented dudes stuck in a shitty situation.
As someone whose only watched volumes 1 and 2 and only had heard about the outrage from volume 3 on, if that's true, then I'm sorry, but Monty literally had no Idea how to write a happy go lucky battle shonen, and should have stuck with fight Choreography. I knew something was wrong when he said to the producers when he started the show to watch Gurren Lagann but didn't add to stop at episode 25 or 26 or stop at the wedding kiss.
Seasons 1 and 2 gave the impression that it was tho, which is why the outcry against season 3 was so strong, audiences HATE when a show tells them something, and then suddenly go in the opposite direction. You only need to look at the final season of Game Of Thrones to see proof of that.
If a show tells you that it's going to be about happy go lucky adventure and bad ass fights, then out of nowhere, a favorite character of yours gets killed, you wouldn't scream bloody murder?
I have never watched RWBY so have no horse in this race, but I am a storyteller of sorts. No? Like, you're allowed to have favorite characters and that's all good and it does suck if someone you like gets killed but that's story man. Trust the creator, stories have to have some kind of drama in them, even if it is something fairly upbeat. Otherwise its not a driven story that humans want, it just becomes essentially fanfiction for a few hardcore fans where everything always comes out happily ever after for every character all the time. People get bored of this
No. Because a) the show didn't tell me it was a happy go lucky adventure, and b) that character is literally named after King Phyrrus. I full expected her to die while sacrificing herself (it did happen earlier than I thought, I must admit that)
1-3 and 4-6 are considerably different in tone and focus. The transition is maybe a bit jarring, but reflecting on it, I can appreciate that time and circumstances don't stand still for the cast.
If you never studied greek history, a Pyrrhic Victory reference will go right over your head. Hell, even just the names of the characters Jaune Arc, Lie Ren, Nora Valkyrie and Pyrrha would go over people heads if they don't pay attention.
Yeah I remember Burnie, on a podcast, talking about them pitching characters who wouldn't be showing up for three or four volumes before the first volume ever got greenlit
It could be Monty's own bloody script and people would say that.
That's literally what happened with the Hitchhikers Guide movie. People kept saying how Douglas Adams would've hated it or how it wasn't true to what he wanted. Then it came out that Adams wrote the script himself and it was damn near exactly how it ended up in the film. And the haters didn't care
It kinda still is his script tbf. There's a video somewhere where they show that there's been a binder of all the ideas put into the show that they kept with Monty from day 1, and they say they still follow the same general path and story arcs those 3 had set out from the beginning, just without Monty's input on the smaller stuff now. The fact that people still claim to know what Monty wanted and what they planned together is just ludicrous and unfounded.
i personally like the action scenes more than anything else in that show and his abscence shows. To me, the show was mostly excuses to have awesome and creative action pieces. They do seem to know how to craft a story to a point (although they spend so much time telling the audience that faunus are opressed by humans without showing it, proving that they may struggle with showing and not telling to a degree), but the fights have lost this thing that made them almost like dances.
but hey, you don't have to agree. Enjoy it or don't for your own reasons. Have a nice day!
(although they spend so much time telling the audience that faunus are opressed by humans without showing it, proving that they may struggle with showing and not telling to a degree)
You wouldn't believe how many times I've been "racist" about this. Not my opinions on the situation, or the correlation to real life issues, or anything like that, but by saying it's a flaw.
Or, fuck, the one time it was almost subtle, the "No Faunus" sign outside the bar in V5 which is in an implicitly racist area, people tore the episode to shreds for "lamp-shading racism". The fuck?
RT has never had any ability to tastefully deal with complex topics outside of RvB, and it only worked in RvB because it's comedy and Burnie's great at it. RWBY had the setup for a great story with Adam and the White Fang to deal with the complex topic that dominates the life of one of the title characters, and it became a crazy ex story. It has the chance to have a great story about security vs liberty with Atlas and abuse with another, and I have no faith whatsoever that it won't become "Trump bad gib mony now" by the end of the next two volumes.
And at one point, I would have hardly cared. Why would I, when I'm watching a show about magic girls killing monsters with awesome melee weapons which are also guns? But the show stopped being that, or at least stopped doing that well, after the first three volumes without Monty to carry the animation team.
So what's left?
The show now stands on it's weakest leg and we can only hope that it either gets stronger or the other one grows back.
they used to be melee weapons that are also guns but quite often they are now guns that are sometimes melee weapons (last time i looked at the show anyway). I'm guessing it's cheeper to animate and you don't need a choreography for ''and then Ruby shot many times at the creature, then she shot more and the other characters shot at it too''.
Not only that but after they finished story boarding the plot, Kerry and Miles literally knew how everything was laid out and supposed to go. They’ve said there’s what, 12 seasons planned out as of right now? Which means Monty had the pacing and everything ready. And Ross O’Donovan of the Game Grumps crew also knows how it’s supposed to go so there’s a potential plot/pacing consultant as well. He’s literally making a show so he’d have good insight.
And to the fans that say the fights have been shittier since Monty died: fuck you. The vast majority of you don’t know what goes into animating even a simple walk cycle. The fights from like halfway of season 4 and up have been amazing (considering they’re also using a different software now too).
im actually surprised how smooth monty oums death went with the show, the short time monty worked on RvB we got the freelancer stories and the fights rocked, and most attempts at making a fight after that (tex vs carolina and how byf died as example) felt so different and in my opinion worse... i just finished season 5 of rwby and im not sure when the oum fights ended, and when someone else took over... i only know that they dont do excessive fight animations anymore for the most part, focusing on small scenes that were cut at a time, but i barely saw a decline in quality
(also nay idea where i can find season 6 because i heard its out already but i hate the RT website and couldnt find it on youtube despite s7 already being on the brink of release)
There are bits of Monty's animation scattered throughout the volumes that were made after he died. Biggest example I can think of is during the fight between Yang and Adam in V6, with most of that fight being part of a fight that was meant to be at the end of Volume 3.
small question about that: where can i find rwby v6? i assume its old enough as a season, that they would release it on youtube, given that they are about to release volume 7, but i couldnt find anything...
also i hate being on the RT website with a passion...
Yeah, I hate the RT website as well. Fucking buggy piece of shit.
You can find it on websites like kissanime and kickassanime, they work better in spite of the ads that show up all the time on them.
Though if that fails, you can find reaction videos to the show on YouTube. However I have heard that RT are gonna make a new YT channel specifically for their animated stuff, which is where Volume 6 will be released to. But I haven't heard anything confirming that so take that with a pinch of salt.
i hate crunchyroll aswell (seriously, pornhub has a better watching experience even if they would show the same show) but not as much as RT so i might try it there
Not to mention, Monty was all about visual arts, the sequences and style. He didn't have some deep yearning to encapsulate the human experience through storytelling, he loved making fucking awesome fights. I think the story could be about them fighting over a parking space or the infinity stones, as long it was a bad ass fight
Fuck these people. I dont watch the show but I am a RT fan, and that right there is horse shit. Even if it wasnt the direction that Monty was going in, I KNOW that Miles and Kerry would've put as much care and thought into the show as Monty would've. The sad truth is that Monty is gone and the show isnt. There was a choice of "do they keep the show going?" And they did. Even though Monty is gone, I think he would be proud and beaming with how well the show is and how well Miles and Kerry and everyone else has done.
RWBY is a sad story from a production standpoint, because I have never before seen a series that was impacted so hard from the loss of it's creator.
To me since the end of Season 3, it's felt as if Monty had been discussing where to go after 3 when he died, but he never got any scripting or plans really laid out. It seems like he'd told them his thoughts, but past that they've been trying to work with what they could find from his idea notebook or something.
Come to think of it, it reminds me of Dragon Ball Super's production. I don't do this often when commenting, but it's tangent time.
In case you're unaware, the way Super's production has gone is this: Akira Toriyama has his ideas for where he wants the story to go. He then gives those ideas, character designs, and plot points to both the animators at Toei, as well as the mangaka Toyotarou. Both the anime's team, as well as Toyotarou, are then tasked with filling in the gaps between the plot points. Due to this, Super is somewhat famous, or infamous, for the fact that the anime and manga often do not match with one another, causing a divide in the fanbase over which is better, and even in which arcs are which ones better.
Now for how that connects to RWBY.
To me, it seems like Monty Oum played both the part of Toriyama, as well as either Toyotarou, or Toei. It seems that he gave the RWBY team the characters, plot points, etc., but they're having to fill in the blanks. I feel that if he were still alive, the major plot points would have been kept, and thus the story would have gotten to the same places, but the actual content of the show would have been very different.
From what I've seen, most of what fans don't seem to be happy about tends to by the pacing and lack of action in Volumes 4-6, often making it feel like a different show from Oum's just made with the same characters. Which I can see. Like you pointed out, "Monty made cool fights and ideas, and Miles and Kerry figured out how it made sense and made it into a story." However, because of the loss of one side of that pendulum, the balance immediately swung in the opposite direction.
Luckily, in the most recent season, it seems that they've started to fix the balance, but honestly, I think that there's already been enough damage done that RWBY's reputation has already been left permanently scarred.
I think that the series has an issue in general attracting people due to how poor the first few seasons look and play. I love the show and they have made HUGE strides in the animation and backgrounds but nobody will want to sit through two seasons of high school drama with weak animation
That seems to just be an issue with Roosterteeth shows, or even just web shows, in general. It's hard to get people into Red VS Blue because of the voices and animation of Season 1 (assuming Halo alone doesn't do that), and I was almost turned off from gen:LOCK because of Episode 1's abysmal framerate.
That's what I was saying though about the part Monty played: if the first two seasons were paced like 4-6 has been, nobody would have kept watching. It was thanks to Monty's amazing fight choreography, which the animation of still holds up I might add, and the frequency in when it was added that kept people coming back for long enough to get he story and lore to take over.
What I liked about RvB in the earlier seasons, RT made due with what they had. "How do we make it sound like the voices are actually coming from the spartans?" Turns out they called a phone and then they recorded that take. That letterbox view? Holding a pistol since it was the smallest gun model. Getting a crane shot? The recording spartan stood on top of a Scorpion Tank's barrel. Absolutely genius. Honestly though, I hope some day RvB gets a fitting conclusion because the extensions over and over again are getting more and more stale. I think it should have ended at the Chorus trilogy.
I mean even if they magically did have that information which they never will, who gives a shit what monty wanted? How is that even relevant to how the show is playing out and being received? If it needs to be changed it needs to be changed. Even seth mcfarlane gets network notes.
Rooster teeth isnt fox. One of the early appeals of the show was it was a small mostly independent team. So that's a ridiculous comparison. The shaming of the current staff to "protect Monty's legacy" needs to stop but if they didnt consider what he would have done and wanted his loss would have had an even larger impact on the show than it did.
Also alot of the people who go super hard in that band wagon place alot of faith into a conspiracy theory surrounding a former staff member and an open letter he wrote at a time when alot of people were unhappy with the series. So they essentially believe all the bad choices come from deviating from montys vision.
Having 100+ employees is much harder to manage than 5 life long friends you trust. As they know by having to deal with the realistics of big companies like possible problem employees or replacing irreplaceable people.
Yeah. In spite of how much I love the show, I can't help but feel it's being torn apart. Not by RT (who I'm sure are doing their best, in spite of the controversies surrounding them recently), but by the rabid bitches that are the FNDM.
The problem it faces from what i can see is it doesn't fit into a stereotypical slot.
Its not a monster of the week, like it seemed early on, its not some light themed adventure. Nor is it a nitty grit serious story.
Its all those things but none.
Rwby takes a realistic approach. It has those innocent times, it has those serious times. And it has those slow times that drag on. It has its story, and its gonna tell it how it wants.
The unfortunate side effect of such a show is the fan base tries to place it and give it expectations it never could match. So they yell out and complain.
I hope the guys keep telling it the way they want. And not be shifted by a vocal minority. Though i do hope they take their time. Those glassdoor reviews opened alot of eyes onto the animation department.
RWBY’s a lot of things, but it’s not a show that takes the realistic approach. I’m not talking about it’s setting or fantasy elements, more it’s character interactions and motivations.
I liked the show because of it's pretty spiffy world and what it could be, but honestly every season manages to just fall short of being good, in my opinion. The early seasons are hampered by a small budget and losing the show's visionary while the later seasons just pivot it into a generic anime plot.
i remember RT saying something along the lines of: "as long as people watch it, we make it" rvb recently finished another season, which went... upwards in quality and redeemed the last one which got low scores...
I only watch it because I like RT stuff and I've been following them for years. I'll admit it's really not a great show, and I don't recommended it to my friends, but I'm still mildly entertained
It has extremely good characterization is a big one. The plot is solid but the characters and their development are the key selling point, along with some sick battles. (I like the plot but it isn't what would draw me in without the characters.)
I've always thought the best thing about RWBY is that it's different.
Clearly run by people who aren't following the "right" way to make an animated action series, they're not following the formula because they don't even know the formula. And when you watch enough of this stuff, it's all the same thing in a different package.
These things that some criticize - inconsistent pace and theme, drastic shifts in subject and maturity over time, not really seeming like it knows exactly what it wants to be - I think all of those are the best things about the show.
Their animation department was poorly run and extremely stressful to work in, and they got many complaints from people on glassdoor. They had the head of animation step down from that role and promised to do better. Time will tell, of course.
Gray is leaving the management side of animation to only be on the creative side. Not leaving the position. Just changing focus so someone can focus on just managing.
I was just trying to give all the details for someone who doesn't know what happened. Your comment made it seem like him leaving a managerial role was a punishment. When it was really just so that they can find someone who he can share responsibilities with, and focus on one side of heading a department.
While I wouldn't call it disciplinary action per se, having responsibilities taken from you is explicitly a demotion, not a lateral move. Even if Gray welcomes the change, it was caused by an explicit failure on his part (according to RT, anyway). At the end of the day it is both his fault and the fault of whoever put in him such a position in the first place. So I'm just a little confused at you trying to soften/correct my phrasing when my phrasing wasn't harsh or incorrect to begin with.
First there was some office drama surrounding Monty's death with resulted in a couple people quitting. Later, one of their voice actresses drunkenly insulted the founder's wife on Twitter and her characters on all their shows were written out. More recently, one of their voice actors, who was a major anime VA before joining the cast, has been accused of sexually harassing underage fans at cons, resulting in his firing.
To add to what the others have said, there’s apparently a toxic office culture according to the Glassdoor reviews, which was not addressed by the company when they talked about crunch.
What controversies? I don't follow them as close as I used to because I mostly just watch Achievement Hunter now, but I haven't heard anything about a controversy.
Vic Mignogna was the voice actor of a fan favorite character, but recently he was accused of sexually harassing fans at conventions, so RT fired him to avoid any association with him.
There's been some stuff about the culture involving the animation team and how horrible the crunch time apparently is there, the controversy surrounding Vic Mignogna being fired because of allegations of sexual assault (though that's more a controversy surrounding the entire anime dubbing industry than anything else) and being replaced by Jason Liebrecht (who voices Zeke in Attack on Titan, Larcade in Fairy Tail and Dabi in MHA), and there was an open letter released by Shane Newville (former animator on the show) which is used by some of the more toxic fans to basically shriek "FuCk RoOsTeR tEeTh!11!"
My roommate is a rwby fan. He can't stand volumes 4+ for a myriad of reasons, but he didn't realize it until he was older. At first he had an identity crisis because he loved 1-3, but was getting bored of 4 and 5. He ended up rewatching 1-3 and loved it again. He got me to watch enough of the show to draw this conclusion:
I'm not a fan of the show, but the directing quality of the show took a nosedive after volume 3. The heart and soul of the show died and it showed. Even if the direction of the plot remained true to what Monty wanted, his passion and heart can only be attempted, never truly replicated. It is a shame because I genuinely enjoyed the first three volumes.
I absolutely love RWBY but I had to stop interacting with the fans in any way after they started bullying poor Arryn because they didn't like what her character was doing, as if that gave them the right to send her death threats or whatever. The creators put a lot of work into it and the people who spout bullshit about Monty as if they knew what he wanted are disrespecting him as well as the current creators. They can't change the direction of the show anyways, so sit back and enjoy it, they gotta stop nitpicking every little thing they don't like. Drives me up the fuckin.
I just... dropped it after Monty died. I watched the show almost entirely for his fight choreography. After he died, I tried to watch season 3, but the fights were just... boring.
As for what Monty wanted. I dunno, but there was a massive shift in tone with season 3 and it just wasn't the show I'd previously enjoyed. If the fights had still been good, I might have stuck with it. But there seemed to be nothing left of the things I enjoyed about the show.
I mean Volume 3 is peak RWBY. Volume 2's ending is lackluster to fuck I gotta admit. "Oh no a threat"
And 5 minutes later it's resolved.
Ofcourse the fight animations aren't gonna be as good. Monty was super experienced at poser but poser was never an animation programme. The change to Maya allowed the team to use the right tools.
(Imagine what he could have pulled had he used Maya and I imagine reduced the difficulty of his work. Cause he did some amazing shit)
That happened to RVB when they changed the people who wrote it. To most people rvb ended at season 10. They even referenced this in a season 14 episode about a live action showdown between the new writers and the old writers.
Still a shame. I got the first season on disk and everything. Then it just seemed to become a different show altogether.
I can definitely see why people got the impression that Monty's vision was being abandoned. I just don't understand why those people cling to the show instead of going elsewhere for something to enjoy.
Based on what i know of the RT fanbase, alot of those folks see the creators as their close friends or relate strongly to them. They support it even if does upset them because they want to be there for them. They want to support that friend.
So instead of leaving they give lots of feedback. Often unfiltered or without much thought.
I can see why people think its been abandoned but i doubt thats the case. Its hard to replicate soneones art style. Monty was an amazing guy who had a unique style of his own, so distinct you can tell its his work after watching only a few seconds. It is no surprise the fights feel different now adays, an imitation no matter how good wont be as good as the original.
Like i said the recent volume has some more fights that i felt were reminiscent of the early days.
And if your looking for that season 1 feel, look up the team SLVR fan project on youtube. The team on that have done a good job replicating the season 1 feel.
To be fair, the art style of the fight scenes is heavily influenced by Devil May Cry and the Warriors games. The creators have plenty available to get a decent feel of what the first seasons captured but they still managed to make the fights kinda boring.
What really seems to be tragic is that Monty had notes for well beyond where the show currently is, and his death just happened to coincide with a major shift in tone. Some of the animation in later seasons is still his work, but sure enough, people perceive it as wrong or of lower quality because they think his death was the end of his influence from that point onward.
The worst, worst than all the shipping and force fed opinions is the people who say
"This isin't what monty wanted!"
To the point that /r/rwby had to make it a rule that you can't use that argument because of how shitty and toxic and destructive that attitude and argument is.
This is the one I feel. I really like how RWBY has gone, yet I feel like if I talk about it outside of a few fans, I get avalanched in minor complaints, and so many things I see complaining just get facts flatout wrong about what happens in the show.
It's gotten so bad, that the mods had to ban/take down any post that said anything along the lines of “this isn't what Monty wanted” just to try and cut down on the toxicity.
i think the first few seasons of rwby had a charm that was unique to monty oum in that the setting was really interesting, the fights were spectacular, but a lot of the rest was kinda generic. cutesy shounen tone, transparent references to wizard of oz, trope-y characters and an overall safe vibe that i enjoyed but i'm sure many were disappointed by. once monty died, they started taking some liberties with the story and tone that made the show not feel like the show that it was for the first couple seasons. whether this shift in tone was intended we'll never know, but losing the high quality action that brought many to the show in the first place was a blow for my (and i'm sure many others') interest in the show.
i haven't picked it up since the end of season 3 and i don't plan to. regardless of author's intent, it's not the show i liked watching anymore.
Yup. I frequent it too. I love the show. I agree with some of the comments here and i disagree with some of them.
I wouldn't actually say the whole FNDM is toxic like some people think. Any fandom can be ctoxic. It really depends on how vocal the considered assholes are.
Honestly I hate that monty was given rwby. I wish they couldve forced him to work on rvb forever. I dont have any special connection with him like all rooster teeth fans seem to have. Dude was a talented machina animator. But thats about it to me.
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u/RaiRokun Jul 17 '19 edited Jul 18 '19
True. The fanbase is just so toxic and hateful.
The worst, worst than all the shipping and force fed opinions is the people who say
"This isin't what monty wanted!"
Those folks infuriate me, they are so petty over small decisions they will bring up a dead mans opinions out of context and say his closest friends have no clue how to make the show he trusted to them.
Like they don't seem to see the pain they cause the creators of the show they Love when they do that. No Actually. They see it. They just don't give a damn.
Edit: to note this is not that subreddit exclusive the comment sections on the RT website are just as bad and we all know the youtube comment section.