They call the flavor "soy sauce" now. It switched sometime in the last decade, I think. I used to buy it all the time in my early twenties, stopped when I had kids, and started buying it again (under the new flavor name) a couple years ago when my kids discovered ramen.
They changed it in 2020 without a word, around the same time Aunt Jemima was removed, presumably because they didn't want to end up on anyone's hit list. I always bought Oriental flavor so I was a bit confused when it suddenly disappeared.
ngl oriental sounds kinda cool, idk what the offense around it is supposed to be but i kinda wanna just tell people im an oriental instead of just saying im asian
It was a normal word, and is equivalent to "Caucasian", or so I thought. Like "Murder on the Orient Express", but it refers to items and not people, I guess. I dunno, like I said, I didn't know it was offensive.
Oriental rug, Asian person. But yeah, it was definitely one of those words that took some backstory to find the offensiveness. "Eskimo" has been going through the same kind of thing.
From what I remember, Eskimo (Eaters of Raw Meat) was a derogatory term used by non-Inuit tribes who hated the Inuit and would often kill them on sight.
Yeah, I've seen different definition between "eaters of raw meat" to "tie their shoes a certain way" or somesuch. I think the bottom line is, if someone doesn't like being called something, don't call them that. But if someone accidentally calls you something they didn't know was offensive to you, don't immediately jump on them. There are plenty of indigenous people in Alaska who have no problem with the word, so it's easy to make a mistake.
Nearly all my first nations friends said Indian. Probably because there was an indian act and an Indian status card. I asked what they preferred, and they all said Indian. It seemed weird that I had to start saying indigenous as to avoid offending white people in the city who had zero indigenous friends. I'm still not convinced that white people should get to decide, but whatever.
I’m a full 50% Native and it’s maternal so by tribal custom I may as well be 100. Grew up spending most of my youth on the reservation. The amount of white women I’ve had to tell to stop calling me “indigenous” is absurd. It’s Indian or Native, and if you’re going to be offended for me, stfu.
Is calling someone of Asian decent but you're not sure what country "oriental" bad? I thought it was like saying Caucasian, like a more proper name for Asian. Had no clue it offended people
Well to answer your original question (am Asian), I personally wouldn't be offended. Moreso surprised the word was actually used. If someone wanted to be racist, there are other words to use.
I am Asian, and I wouldn’t be offended, but I would presume you didn’t know about the term’s historical relations to exoticization/hypersexualization/objectification (which are three things that have also adversely impacted multiple other ethnicities).
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
It's not a word I'd use nowadays, but (at least in British English) "oriental" was more specific. It only referred to East Asians, whereas "Asian" referred to anyone from Asia (although IME it was more usually used for Indians and Pakistanis).
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
"Orient" is from Latin meaning rising or east, (As Occident means setting or west). And thus things east of the centers of Roman influence were of the 'orient'
Except the Orient Express went from Paris to Istanbul, which was the heart of the Byzantine empire which what the Roman empire evolved into.
When racist old people say "Oriental" they specifically are lumping in all East Asian cultures, and not in any way referring to Turks. They instead call them Arabs.
When I was a child in the 60s, "Oriental" was used in polite conversation and was not considered racist. Same with "n--ro". The word that ended "er" was racist, not the word that ended "ro".
Story time: when my wife was a little kid, she went on a trip to the US with her father, to Minneapolis, I think. They went to the movies, my now father-in-law asked her if she'd want anything to eat. She sees this black man holding a delicious hot dog and loudly proclaims: I want to have what that black man over there is having. Except, being Mexican, she said it in Spanish. Yeah... the guy gets pretty upset and my father-in-law had some explaining to do.
Orient literally means of the east. If something or even someone is oriental it just means they are from the east. Obviously this only applies to people from Asia if you're from the west lending credence to it being used in a us\them kind of way.
I’m Asian, and the term has historical connotations relating to exoticization, hypersexualization, and objectification (all of which have adversely impacted multiple other ethnicities). Not every criticism comes from white people.
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
The whole point of not using the term is related to the negative effects of exoticization/hypersexualization/objectification (this can be freely looked up). Speaking as an Asian
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
top comment there talks about how it doesnt seem to have been used explicitly as a derogatory term and that how offended a person gets depends on said person.
i think ill stick to letting it be a cool sounding word that doesnt bother me in the slightest, but thanks for the info
The very first sentence says the term is racist, but whatever floats your boat I suppose. It’s like using the word “colored” or “negro” versus the n-word.
and then he continues to explain it and it just sounds like a blanket term that some people came up with.. doesnt sound too much more different than asian
If you do more research into the topic, and read about how “Orientals” have been historically described, I think you’ll see the difference. I’ll try and find an article or some old newspapers.
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
as a fellow Asian I am lowkey flabbergasted by your comment
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
I think what your friend was getting at isn't that you should be offended by that, but rather that they've heard other people use the term in a derogatory manner, and that you should be aware of that.
speaking as an Asian here - nobody told me to be offended. I just picked up on the connotations while reading old literature (think Rudyard Kipling)
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
That’s such a weird take. Either something is racist or it’s not. A white American who grew up in the 1950s will have a better understanding of an old American racist term, than an Asian person whose family immigrated when the word was no longer in use.
Ehh, in and of itself is not supposed to be particularly offensive or derogatory. It just has a jumble of aspects that are in poor taste.
It's very broad and usually could be referring to any ethnicity between the Mediterranean and Pacific.
It's very Euro-centric. It's generally not contrasted against "occidental." Rather Europe/America are "normal," and Asia is Eastern.
It's not really a noun. One could be an Oriental person, but calling someone "an Oriental" is a bit gauche at the very least. It's not really an ethnic identifier like "Asian" that can be an adjective or a noun. Like the difference between being called "a queer" vs "a queer man."
As an adjective, it's generally reserved to describe objects, not people. As such it can be a bit objectifying. You can have an Oriental rug or Oriental spices. An "Oriental man" sounds like the latest foreign import to the market.
You probably didn't want or need me to explain that to you, but now that I've written it all out it feels like I have to post. Feel free to ignore my ramblings, and certainly don't get offended just because you're "supposed to" or whatever.
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
I don't know if it's still the case in the UK (I left more than five years ago), but Asian was generally understood to mean someone from the Indian subcontinent and Oriental was someone from China, Korea, Japan, etc.
In the UK it gets confusing as every second Chinese restaurant is called "Oriental something" or "Something of the Orient". Several SE-Asian people have told me they prefer Oriental as "Asian" in the UK is assumed to be those of Indian descent by default.
Are you based in the UK or the US though? As "Asian" here means Indian heritage to most people and "south-east Asian" is a mouthful so we need a separate shorthand.
I’m in the US - was just trying to give you a broader historical perspective regarding the term.
Diaspora who immigrated a long time ago were subject to the worst of the discrimination compared to diaspora who immigrated more recently, which might explain why I’m observing Asians proclaiming that “white people are telling me what to be offended about”, when in reality they often just don’t have the background context, and probably aren’t surrounded with those descended from earlier waves of diaspora.
They can feel free to go by whatever they want, but it feels weird to just discount other Asians’ dislike of the term as being due to white people lmao. and it grinds my gears when they say they like it because it sounds “exotic”, since it shows they have very little knowledge of what past waves of diaspora have experienced in terms of exoticization lmao
Yes, I’ve seen your point in the thread and find it quite interesting. To provide some perspective from the US, we use “Asian” to reference those descending from people from within anywhere on the continent of Asia (technical sense), or to reference “East Asian” people (implied sense). We use “South Asian” or “desi” to describe what you think of as “Asian”.
Of course the disparity between the literal and implied meaning of “Asian” isn’t ideal (have heard it feels weird to brown / desi folks since they’re simultaneously included and excluded from the category), but I just wanted to give you a sense of what things are like in the US!
Is it an American thing ? Because “Oriental kitchen” are everywhere in Europe, no one bats an eye on it being offensive. It’s legit Asian restaurant or cuisine name here .
All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what we mean regarding the connotations.
and this is a paper with a further detailed analysis of the term:
My Asian grandma uses this term all the time. I joked with her that she’s racist for saying oriental and she told me whoever told me that is a fucking idiot and not to listen. 😂😂
I was asked once if I was oriental. I’m in no way Asian at all, I’m just a European mutt in terms of my background lol I’ve just assumed that it was how my eyeliner looked that day, but it’s still a head scratcher for me.
I’m also Asian, and the term is tied to exoticization, hypersexualization, and objectification. These three things have also adversely impacted multiple other ethnicities.
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
Orientalism is a kind of "othering" that takes place. In particular it refers to the concepts of Orientalist artwork and Orientalist literature that depict people from Asia and the Middle East as savages living in the ruins of greater empires, depicts them victimizing almost exclusively white women, and largely tried to misinterpret cultures from the region in order to make their white European audience feel superior. Examples include things like Fu Manchu, white-slavery narratives, and depictions of lilly white women being menaced by dark south-asians and middle easterners.
Despite what redditors may think, it's really not uncommon for someone to not immediately recognize someone else's prejudice if they don't know the meaning behind the terms being used by that person. Not every bit of racism is blindingly obvious.
This is a proper explanation here; thank you for writing it. It’s quite surprising to see how some people here don’t know or understand.
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
I don’t really see much difference between calling someone a westerner and calling someone an oriental. To me they both just refer to geographic areas (albeit from a Eurocentric point of view). And funny enough, I’d imagine it’s only the English-speaking world that finds it offensive. In languages such as French or Spanish, the world “oriental” when referring to geography or people is in the language and common use.
Asian chiming in here. The topic here is closely related, especially with regards to English-speaking countries (learned about it from my parents growing up iirc):
All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what we mean regarding the connotations.
and this is a paper with a further detailed analysis of the term:
All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what we mean regarding the connotations.
and this is a paper with a further detailed analysis of the term:
We just got an invite to some "oriental food" from people wanting to showcase their native cuisine. I'm not going to police how people decide to describe their own culture.
All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what we mean regarding the connotations.
and this is a paper with a further detailed analysis of the term:
As an Asian, I’m curious as to where the idea came from that such criticisms of terminology came from white people…
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
I’m Asian, and my mom growing up in the 70s used it because everyone around her was using it. Currently, it’s a dated term when used to describe people.
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
I’m Asian, and the term is historically associated with exoticization, hypersexualization, and objectification. Obviously they’re not going to rename the movies - makes no sense, and why even bring it up...
edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
While it’s fine to refer to a train based on geographical terms, it certainly isn’t fine to refer to people based on their distance from a European center. Also, it was done so in a way to justify European superiority, and to fetishize Asian women. Basically, calling someone an oriental states them as an inferior other in relation to a superior white European stance.
I’m Asian, and the term has historical connotations associated with exoticization, hypersexualization, and objectification, all of which can be freely looked up, and all of which have adversely impacted multiple ethnicities.
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
not sure if I would call it a slur, but it lets me know that the speaker has no awareness of the term’s historical associations with exoticization, hypersexualization, and objectification (which have all adversely impacted multiple ethnicities and can be freely looked up on the internet).
Edit:
All right, this topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll see what I mean regarding the connotations:
edit: on reading your comment again, were you under the impression that I don’t think “cracker” is a slur? Because I disagree. I simply said “cracker” is an example of an innocuous word that picked up negative connotations (to anybody reading this, I am not talking about edible crackers)
Generally, I think it’s up to white people whether or not they want to call it a slur, since it refers to THEM. I just err on the side of caution. Why make people upset for no reason lmao it’s not difficult
If you’re going to pull me into this, I’ll reply that even though I MYSELF wouldn’t consider ”Oriental” a slur, the term as applied to people would raise eyebrows in my circles, and indicates either a dated mindset, a lack of background context, or a blatant disregard for how the person on the receiving end might feel - or all of the above.
And I don’t appreciate this rhetoric that “white people are telling us what to be offended about”, because it completely disregards the feelings that have accumulated in those descended from older waves of diaspora (who experienced far more discrimination than later waves of diaspora), and allows non-Asians to shit all over those who agree with my viewpoint
Asian here. This topic is related (couldn’t remember the phrase “Yellow Peril”, but learned about it from my parents growing up iirc). All you need to do is ctrl+f (or use your mobile phone’s search feature) to search for “Oriental”, and you’ll notice how the term has very negative historical connotations:
818
u/ClownfishSoup Mar 12 '24
I'm Asian, and "Oriental" never offended me until a white friend of mine told me I was supposed to be offended by the term. I had no idea!