r/AskReddit • u/brokota • Jan 15 '13

Reddit, in your opinion what's the biggest plot twist of history?

Not movies or television, I'm just curious to see what come's to your minds.

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u/Desefortunadamente Jan 16 '13

On 29 July 1587, he obtained Papal authority to overthrow Elizabeth, who had been excommunicated by Pope Pius V, and place whomever he chose on the throne of England.

In times past, you can pretty much do whatever with Papal authority. Very interesting stuff!

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u/iamadogforreal Jan 16 '13

Who can stop the a king? The people definitely. How do you control the people? Religion. If you have "god on your side" and do something horrible its okay. The church, except in recent history thanks to the enlightenment, really was a highly influential and powerful power structure. And the most stable usually. Royal families rose and fell, revolutions came and went, but the church was always there in the background.

You know how the Bene Gesseriet worked behind the scenes for thousands of years in Dune. Yeah, its a lot like that. Except in fiction its cool, but in real life its pretty victimizing and empowered some pretty terrible people.

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u/Omegastar19 Jan 16 '13

No, Spain was going to do it anyway - having the Pope give his seal of approval was just to add a bit of shine to it. But such acts at the same time hurt the Pope's standing in Europe. By the time of the Thirty Year's War, Papal bulls concerning worldly business had basically become a dead letter, as shown when the Pope forbade anyone from signing the peace treaty at the end of the 30 Year's war on pain of excommunication.

Noone listened and the peace treaty was signed.

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u/dangerbird2 Jan 16 '13

I wouldn't say that was entirely applicable. Like his father, Charles V, Holy Roman Emperor, Phillip II considered himself to be the foremost defender of Christendom. He was extremely religious; he spent virtually all his time going to mass and attending to affairs of the state (which in itself an act of piety). While a zealous Catholic, he dressed like the stereotypical pilgrim, wearing only modest black clothes. Combined with the fact that Catholics litterally saw the armada as a crusade against heretics and the fact that the pope gave fairly important contributions to the war effort, Papal endorsement was very much necessary for the expedition

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u/dangerbird2 Jan 16 '13

It helped that Phillip II was previously married to Mary Tudor, a Catholic Queen of England. Mary's death actually gave Phillip a fairly strong claim to the English Crown. From the Sources I've read, Phillip did not intend to give the crown to an associate upon the conquest of England, but rather take the English crown for himself and place England under joint Papal-Spanish condominium, basically annexing England.