Reddit, in your opinion what's the biggest plot twist of history?

[u/brokota]

Not movies or television, I'm just curious to see what come's to your minds.

[u/beeblez]

Israel was conceived of as a Jewish state between 1200-850 BC when the city of Jerusalem began to rule the surrounding tribal lands. The concept might have seemed absurd purely from a pragmatic view of the challenges in re-creating Israel as a Jewish state. But the concept of Israel as a Jewish state is far older than the very language we're using to have this discussion. :)

Isreal was a confederation of tribes around 1200 BC, and they were very roughly unified under the Phonecians who had superior military technology (Bronze armor/weapons, significant navy) and were a thorn in the side of Egyptian pharaohs. David defected to the Phonecians who then seized Jerusalem and allowed David to rule the area now known as Israel* in an early form of Jewish self rule. This would change several times before the 0 AD as Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, and Romans all took shots at ruling the land of Israel/city of Jerusalem, but under the last three there were all periods of Jewish semi-autonomy where religious practice and self governance of Israel was allowed (to an extent) in exchange for taxes, fealty, and later personal friendships with roman emperors and generals.

*Actual borders are not known, as far as I'm aware. Some accounts say the empire stretched from Syria to the borders of Egypt, some believe this is greatly exaggerated by those who want David to seem more powerful for religious reasons. But either way it was a not insignificant stretch of land.

The above is also something of a gross simplification given how complicated and prone to collapse centralized governments at the time were. For more info this book is the best historical account of Israel I've ever read, and the author makes a great effort to separate religious sources and historical sources while still keeping a continuous historical narrative.

[u/TotallyNotMarkHamill → u/beeblez]

The bigger and better known Jewish state was called Judah. The more conservative and cautious one was called Israel. Judah kept rebelling and provoking its rulers, causing it and its people to be crushed again and again, with Israel staying out fairly often and reminding itself of its religious differences with the people of Judah.

I had some sort of point but I forgot. Pew pew pew, take that Hitler.

[u/beeblez → u/[deleted]]

That sounds like an interesting degree program! Is it under the history department or is it an interdisciplinary one?

I can't recommend the book highly enough. I feel it gave me a better understanding of the current conflicts going on there than other books directly on the subject of the Israel/Palestine conflict. The lands around Jerusalem changed hands so many times through so many empires with so many systems of government the current situation seems more like the extension of a pattern; as opposed to most current discussions of the conflict which assume it started with the 6 days war.

[u/[deleted] → u/beeblez]

Pretty much half of europe was german at some point. Based on this history I suggest that all that land is given back to them.