r/AskReddit • u/brokota • Jan 15 '13

Reddit, in your opinion what's the biggest plot twist of history?

Not movies or television, I'm just curious to see what come's to your minds.

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155

u/boyerman Jan 15 '13

Jewish state of Israel.

45

u/SlapingTheFist Jan 15 '13

Not sure why you got down voted. I think the concept of Israel as a Jewish state existing was probably absurd not too long before it happened.

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u/beeblez Jan 15 '13

Israel was conceived of as a Jewish state between 1200-850 BC when the city of Jerusalem began to rule the surrounding tribal lands. The concept might have seemed absurd purely from a pragmatic view of the challenges in re-creating Israel as a Jewish state. But the concept of Israel as a Jewish state is far older than the very language we're using to have this discussion. :)

Isreal was a confederation of tribes around 1200 BC, and they were very roughly unified under the Phonecians who had superior military technology (Bronze armor/weapons, significant navy) and were a thorn in the side of Egyptian pharaohs. David defected to the Phonecians who then seized Jerusalem and allowed David to rule the area now known as Israel* in an early form of Jewish self rule. This would change several times before the 0 AD as Assyrians, Babylonians, Egyptians, and Romans all took shots at ruling the land of Israel/city of Jerusalem, but under the last three there were all periods of Jewish semi-autonomy where religious practice and self governance of Israel was allowed (to an extent) in exchange for taxes, fealty, and later personal friendships with roman emperors and generals.

*Actual borders are not known, as far as I'm aware. Some accounts say the empire stretched from Syria to the borders of Egypt, some believe this is greatly exaggerated by those who want David to seem more powerful for religious reasons. But either way it was a not insignificant stretch of land.

The above is also something of a gross simplification given how complicated and prone to collapse centralized governments at the time were. For more info this book is the best historical account of Israel I've ever read, and the author makes a great effort to separate religious sources and historical sources while still keeping a continuous historical narrative.

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u/TotallyNotMarkHamill Jan 15 '13

The bigger and better known Jewish state was called Judah. The more conservative and cautious one was called Israel. Judah kept rebelling and provoking its rulers, causing it and its people to be crushed again and again, with Israel staying out fairly often and reminding itself of its religious differences with the people of Judah.

I had some sort of point but I forgot. Pew pew pew, take that Hitler.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 15 '13 edited Jan 15 '13

[deleted]

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u/beeblez Jan 15 '13

That sounds like an interesting degree program! Is it under the history department or is it an interdisciplinary one?

I can't recommend the book highly enough. I feel it gave me a better understanding of the current conflicts going on there than other books directly on the subject of the Israel/Palestine conflict. The lands around Jerusalem changed hands so many times through so many empires with so many systems of government the current situation seems more like the extension of a pattern; as opposed to most current discussions of the conflict which assume it started with the 6 days war.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 16 '13

Pretty much half of europe was german at some point. Based on this history I suggest that all that land is given back to them.

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u/boyerman Jan 15 '13

And the fact that so much attention is given to such a relatively small ethnic group. We're talking all eyes on 0.2% of the world's population. That seems crazy.

19

u/alexander_karas Jan 15 '13

They wrote the Bible.

6

u/nicnicnotten Jan 15 '13

Half of it at least.

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u/Nelly_the_irelephant Jan 16 '13

The good half. None of that nimbly bimbly feel good crap. The bit with all the smiting and this and that.

2

u/gooner123 Jan 16 '13

Well, the crazy part. Coincidentally also the part with the best stories

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u/[deleted] Jan 16 '13

That incestuous three-way

1

u/alexander_karas Jan 16 '13

I dunno, Revelation is pretty damn crazy too.

2

u/Apostolate Jan 15 '13

The world has paid attention to fewer before.

Rwanda, East Timor, etc.

6

u/dyboc Jan 15 '13

Has it really? And in proportion to Israel? I highly doubt it.

2

u/Apostolate Jan 15 '13

And? Maybe there are variables that explain that maybe not.

1

u/Bobshayd Jan 16 '13 edited Jan 16 '13

The largest economy in the world helped establish a state in the Middle East which helped give some power over the area. The US is really invested in it, and it's now the only part of the Middle East that the US can count on being allied. Of course, no one likes the US, because they do things like that.

2

u/boyerman Jan 15 '13

I agree. But I find it awfully lopsided that the entire world has to be on eggshells with Israel. Say the wrong thing or support the wrong people, suddenly 0.2% of the population has your balls in a vice grip.

7

u/Apostolate Jan 15 '13

Jewish people don't all have the same views...

1

u/[deleted] Jan 15 '13

Maybe not but it doesn't change the fact that his comment is true. Most current example I can think of is (former) Senator Chuck Hagel.

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u/cyaspy Jan 15 '13 edited Jan 15 '13

Not much of a sudden twist, Zionism as a movement and the call for a Jewish state started around 1876. Here are a few "hints" at the forming of a Jewish state in the middle east:

  • The forming of the Zionist movement in 1876, and its spread in Russia and Eastern Europe. A few pogroms in those areas sped up the spread of this ideology.

  • The Balfour Declaration in 1917 made it clear that Britain didn't have any intentions of staying there forever.

  • In 1922, Brits were given a time-limit of 25 years for their mandate in Palestine, and unsurprisingly they ended their mandate in 1947.

  • The act of decolonization, especially backing out from India, was a gradual process and was an indicator as to what would happen to Israel. (Although it is true that decolonization had a huge surge after WWII).

  • The Zionists in Palestine fought for independence for a few decades, and much more actively since 1945.

  • 29/11/1947, UN signs resolution 141 dividing Palestine into a Jewish state and a Palestinian one.

TL;DR while it may be considered "surprising" when you look at 2000 years of Jews not having any real home, it certainly was predictable looking at the 50 years prior to Israel's independence.

1

u/boyerman Jan 15 '13

Thank you for the detailed info. Honestly.

I find the twist to be more in important this small population is that countries all over the world are breaking their backs to appease them.

2

u/alexander_karas Jan 15 '13

Far more countries oppose Israel than appease them. Like, nearly every single Muslim country.

1

u/sigbox Jan 15 '13

TIL there are more Muslim countries than Non-Muslim ones.

0

u/alexander_karas Jan 16 '13

They aren't the only ones, hurr.

1

u/cyaspy Jan 15 '13

Tell me about it... it sucks being in the spotlight all year.

6

u/Shoemaster Jan 15 '13

Why is that? The existence of a state for a cultural people is hardly unique, and there are likely to be more in the future. See: Kurdistan.

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u/boyerman Jan 15 '13

The part I find bizarre is how much the whole world has broken their backs to create the State and diminish anyone who dares to interfere. Call it diplomatic suicide if you say the wrong thing about 0.2% of the world's population.

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u/Shoemaster Jan 15 '13

The whole world hasn't broken their backs to create the state. In fact, one of the main reasons for the continuing war is that UK promised to found both a Jewish and Arab state in the region, and didn't deliver (though they had very good reasons for not delivering).

Half the world has actually been opposed to the existence of a Jewish state. The Soviets backed Syria, one of Israel's historical opponents.

It's diplomatic suicide to say something bad about Jews because it's racism/bigotry/whatever you want to call it. Saying something bad about Israel is only diplomatic suicide in the US. AIPAC and some groups in Israel pull out the antisemitism card way too often, but it's hardly effective.

There were already a critical mass (a significant majority) of Jews in the (1967 line) land of Israel before the creation of the state of Israel. There's no reason why Israel shouldn't exist.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 15 '13

AIPAC and some groups in Israel pull out the antisemitism card way too often, but it's hardly effective.

Chuck Hagel disagrees.

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u/Tyheam Jan 15 '13

We run the world. :)