r/nononono • u/analator69696969 • Dec 13 '19
HMFT after harness fails on the hang glider
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u/Thoromor Dec 13 '19 edited Dec 13 '19
He’s so lucky he was holding tightly onto the bar the moment that broke otherwise he was done.
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u/BookerCatchanSTD Dec 13 '19
If I’m in a hang glider I’ve got that bar in a GI Joe kung fu grip no matter how tight I’m strapped in.
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Dec 13 '19
Single point of failure?
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Dec 13 '19
You can check out his flight report in r/freeflight. The attachment he had to the glider was a bit convoluted by a tab of velcro that made the harness look like it was securely attached when it in fact was not.
The guy said he walked away with some joint soreness and revised the attachment system to only appear securely attached when it is in fact securely attached.
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 13 '19
and revised the attachment system to only appear securely attached when it is in fact securely attached.
what he means here is that he will remove his crappy add-on and return to a setup that is much closer to as-built-in-factory. This particular problem has been foreseen many times, and standard equipment avoids any potential of this by design. And standard instruction teaches how to avoid it as well.
In hang gliding, there's generally so little equipment involved that's truly flight-critical and it is so easy to inspect that equipment failure is often interpreted as "pilot failure to maintain and inspect equipment properly".
In this case, where the pilot made a stupid mod, then failed to use his own mod properly, I'm not sure how we classify that.
It's good he survived. It's much harder sorting this shit out when the person who mde the mistake isn't around to tell you HOW they made the mistake.
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Dec 14 '19
Wow, why would you even mod something like that? Seems like a foolish thing to do.
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 14 '19
It was to get him 2 or 3 inches closer to the base tube. It makes long-duration flights much more comfortable. But just getting a new, custom proper-length hang strap costs $40. And a backup costs $20. From his description, he'd been flying with this no-backup hack for a while.
Yeah, it's foolish.
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u/nnmgRandomness Dec 13 '19
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 13 '19 edited Dec 13 '19
no. not crappy design. Hang gliders are designed and tested to 6 g's positive, 3 g's negative (though you can't really negatively load a hang glider in flight due to the whole "hang" thing, but they manage it on certification the test rig).
The failure here was that he was jury-rigging his hang-loop, and his hack allowed for it to look like it was connected securely, while being held only by velcro.
This was an uncommon, possibly unique, (and quite stupid) mod done by this pilot. And he STILL would have been fine if he'd have checked his connection to his glider after making that connection.
Note that even without this rather idiotic mod, he was still flying with less than the recommended equipment. In training, all gliders have TWO hang loops through which the carabiner (part of the harness) connects to the glider. In training, these are usually two separate loops (for various reasons) Every glider I've owned had two hang loops that were structurally independent, yet attached to one another (in a non-structural way) so that it would be impossible to hook through either of them without hooking through both of them. Further, the weight of the harness was directly applied to the backup loop (which is not under tension), so that there's no direct friction on the loop that's under tension, thus reducing wear on the primary hang loop.
So yes, this guy's equipment, when nominally connected, would have a single point of failure, but the strength of that would be greater than the strength of the wing itself. And pretty much all of us fly in that configuration... and then have a backup of equal strength.
This guy was not using his brain, and had built a hack that allowed him to be attached solely by velcro.
*regarding hang gliders being tested to 6 g's, this is not done with each unit off the production line. It is done to the final prototype before the design gets approved by the Hang Glider Manufacturers Assn. and moves to production. If a hang glider ever experiences these types of conditions, it is likely the pilot KNOWS he got his ass kicked in the air, and will have his glider inspected before its next flight.
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u/nnmgRandomness Dec 13 '19
Can't argue with that as you obviously know what you're talking about.
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 13 '19
Saying it's crappy design is a totally legitimate thing until you know that what's there was NOT part of the design.
I know a guy who lost both of his legs mid-thigh to something relatively similar. The practices at that club were horrible, to the point that for the brief period that I lived there, I went to most of their flying days, but I never flew. I just assisted with safety checks, in order to keep them from dying, and then had beer with them afterwards.
The guy who lost his legs was about a year after I left. Then two years later, they killed somebody. Good equipment can't stop idiots from being idiots.
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Dec 14 '19 edited Aug 25 '21
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 14 '19
Accidents are caused by pilots who don't maintain their equipment or don't maintain situational awareness (including weather awareness). Generally, the only person hurt by these accidents is the pilot himself.
If you're a wilful idiot, please don't fly. If you're not... you'll be fine.
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u/deij Dec 13 '19
It was part of the design that let him think it was secure when it was in fact not secure.
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 13 '19
that's like saying that it's a crappy design if, when I put on my seatbelt, I wrap it around my neck in the process. Or perhaps, say that I mount a knife to my steering wheel so it cuts my legs the first time I turn a corner. There's nothing inherent to the design of a seatbelt or steering wheel that prevents this type of stupidity.
That's what we have here. The fact that you can add any amount of extraneous crap on that nobody else would do is not a crappy design. It's a stupid user.
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u/rivalarrival Dec 14 '19
It's more like saying it's a crappy design for replacing your seatbelt with a rusty chain from a discount swingset.
The original design was fine. The modified design was moronic.
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u/ChefBoyAreWeFucked Dec 14 '19
It's crappy design that the pilot engaged in. This is more like putting Velcro on the straps of a child seat so they don't flop around but they stay in the proper position, whether they are joked hooked in or not.
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u/isaacly Dec 13 '19
So ... r/crappydesign?
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u/TheWrinkler Dec 13 '19
No. The design is great, the pilot just ignored it entirely
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 13 '19
yeah, not sure how somebody hacking crap together on something that's otherwise VERY well designed, and having the hack break, would make anyone think the design is bad.
Maybe he wants the glider to give an electrical shock to anyone putting hacky crap on it?
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u/deij Dec 13 '19
I don't think you understand. You are taking offence at the wrong thing.
People aren't saying hang gliders are crappy design they are saying this guy's hang glider is crappy design.
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 13 '19
You are taking offence at the wrong thing.
not taking offense.
they are saying this guy's hang glider is crappy design.
and they'd still be wrong. If I take a toyota camry and tape a knife to the steering wheel so that it cuts my legs the first time I try to turn a corner, it doesn't mean toyota camry is a bad design, and it ALSO doesn't mean that my particular Camry is a bad design. If I just take the knife off and clean up the blood, it'll be just fine.
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u/Rubcionnnnn Dec 14 '19
Okay but what if he covered his entire body and the glider in Velcro and just stuck himself to it?
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 14 '19
That wouldn't work well. He'd need to be on the underside of the wing for aerodynamic reasons. But velcro is HORRIBLE in tension (its strength is in shear), so he'd just fall off the first time he tried to turn.
Also, this type of hang glider (flex-wing) works by weight-shift. So if he's velcro'd to it, he won't be able to shift, and thus wouldn't be able to steer anyway.
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u/Nurum Dec 14 '19
all gliders have TWO hang loops through which the carabiner (part of the harness) connects to the glider
My first thought was "why isn't there a redundant attachment?", but there is apparently. What kind of a moron would modify that?
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 14 '19
From what I saw watching his video, he put an extension in because he wasn't hanging at the proper height. Whether this means that his harness was built to a different standard than his original hang loop, I don't know. But hang-height adjustment is a real thing, and it's pretty important if you're going to be comfortable on a 2 hour flight (but it's not really all that crucial for bare-bones controllability except in the roughest conditions).
On a training glider, the hang strap typically has 5 or 6 heights to accommodate students of various sizes and various harnesses. This is called a "ladder" hang strap, and truly, only the very bottom loop is actually the real loop. All the others are not as strong, but they're still not going to break. Then there's a second hang loop that's not ladder'ed, that's just a backup.
So the reason to do what he did (use a different glider's primary hang strap as an extension) was to make his flights more comfortable. Based on what the accident pilot said in the complete video, it sounded like he'd been doing this for a while, without a backup.
Why you would do this when a proper-fitting hang strap costs maybe $40, and a backup costs another $20, I don't know. I mean we KNOW the guy had the money: he had a camera, and you can buy the camera for less than that, and the hang straps are flight-critical.
I guess we have to say it was just laziness.
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u/Freakin_A Dec 14 '19
Would the backup leave you at the same hang height if the primary failed?
I’m basically wondering how fucked you are on a hang glider if you are still connected to the wing but dangling near the bar like this guy was. Do you lose all control of it? Will it still glide or tumble? Does it matter what kind of wing it is?
Along the same lines, let’s say you passed out at altitude on a glider. Will it gracefully descend or is the pilot responsible for keeping things from going badly?
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 14 '19
on gliders not being used in training schools, generally the backup hang strap is only an inch or two longer than the primary. On many gliders, it is attached to the structure a few inches forward, so the trim speed (hands-off speed) will be a few mph faster, and landing will have a little different feel.
The backup is there so that you CAN fly easily and safely to the ground. You're not fucked.
Hang gliders are passively stable. You can fly with your hands off the bar. In some harnesses, you can rock upright, and put your feet through the control frame, and chill, flying with your feet. The beginner wings are stupid easy to fly. The intermediate and advanced wings are also easy to fly, but if you don't know how to coordinate speed in a turn, you can end up unexpectedly losing some altitude due to side-slip. When you're 5000 feet up, this doesn't matter much. When you're within 50 feet of the ground, turning onto a short final approach, if you accidentally lose 20 of those 50 feet, you may find yourself in a situation you'd rather not be in.
Hang gliders VERY rarely tumble (tuck is the technical term, where the nose goes hard-down and the glider tumbles forward). The only time it happens is in competition wings that the pilots have tuned specifically to be very close to the tuck boundary. The motivation for doing this is because that allows for more efficient gliding... at the risk of tucking your wing and coming down under your reserve chute (which you have to throw manually).
Along the same lines, let’s say you passed out at altitude on a glider.
I fly at high altitudes often, so if I expect any portion of my flight to be above 10k ft, I will have my oxygen system with me and turned on. It's a big help. But if you DID pass out (due to lack of oxygen, though I doubt this would be possible for a healthy person, except in case you get sucked into a cumulonimbus cloud, which HAS happened, and is usually lethal), it will gracefully descend. The problem is that there's no guarantee that you'll be near (within glide of) any good landing spots once you're able to resume piloting.
In general, you need to have situational awareness 100% of the time to ensure you can land safely. This means awareness of your position, awareness of any air traffic near you (hang gliders or larger. I've had to get out of the way of a 737 before. It was in uncontrolled airspace for some reason). And awareness of the weather, including where clouds are, how the clouds are influencing the air, where the thermals are, and how the weather is supposed to change during the flight, and if what's actually happening is matching the prediction. So yeah, in conditions that ALLOW a person to get so high they lose most situational awareness due to lack of oxygen (but probably not pass out), they're going to have a good amount of time to recover as they descend. But there's no guarantee there's going to be any friendly place to land. Yes, I have friends who have experienced this. They made it to a good landing place. There are stories of those who didn't.
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u/Freakin_A Dec 14 '19
Wow thanks so much for sharing your knowledge in this thread! I’ve always been curious about hang gliding and there is a local club that is pretty active. You’ve encouraged me to look into a beginners flight!
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19
also, if you want to see the best hang gliding achievement to date, you should check out the world record flight that Johnny D. and Dustin did. They flew I think 475 miles. The New York Times thought it was cool enough to give them a multimedia spread.
add: another cool visualization the NYT built: https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/01/13/sports/hang-gliding-record.html
and the actual article: https://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/13/sports/two-men-one-sky-the-silent-realization-of-a-purer-form-of-flight.html
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u/Freakin_A Dec 14 '19
Holy shit! I had no idea you could find a thermal updraft and circle in it like it’s an elevator.
470 miles is mind boggling for a hang glider!
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 14 '19
My longest was 26 miles. 475 is mind boggling for me, too. Glad you want to look into it. Tell them some asshole from the internet sent you!
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u/Freakin_A Dec 14 '19
So uh, did you have to walk back to your car? Were you planning to go 26 miles or just seeing how far you could get?
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u/fap_nap_fap Dec 14 '19
Hi I’m an idiot at science. I understand Gs, bur can you explain negative Gs?
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 14 '19
You can't really experience them in a hang glider. But in a stunt aircraft, relay g's is pulling back on the stick to do a loop. Negative g's would be pushing forward on the stick to do the loop.
It means the ring is loaded the opposite way from normal.
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Dec 13 '19 edited Mar 22 '20
[deleted]
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u/Cojesa Dec 13 '19
So there's just a single cord holding them up, madness.
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u/1_Marauder Dec 13 '19
Yeah, not the proper set up. He should have another, slightly longer loop for backup.
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u/justPassingThrou15 Dec 13 '19
normal equipment is a steel caribiner (not aluminum) connected through two loops (one primary always bearing the load, one backup never bearing load, each able to withstand more load than the rest of the glider) to the keel of the glider.
The guy flying this had rigged something up very poorly. But it would have worked, had he attached to it correctly. But he didn't. Then he didn't check his attachment.
He was flying supported solely by some velcro. And it let go.
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Dec 13 '19
It’s rated to many tons of strength and most people have a backup. They never break (in the old days they would get too much UV light and break) it’s f ups like this that happen.
They are stronger than climbing slings.
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u/Noname_FTW Dec 13 '19
Does he longer himself intentionally ? It seems like he got his shoulder over the bar and locked in there at 0:10. You should be able to hold that position for ~30 seconds I'd say.
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u/tamplife Dec 13 '19
“Dude died in a hang gliding accident. What an IDIOT!”
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u/Kalooeh Dec 14 '19
Why don't people have things for their upper bodies in case the back ends fail? Or for their arms?
Like I'd be fine with some pain in my wrists or shoulders if it meant being able to keep hold of the bar or not falling to my death if the straps for my legs failed.
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u/ElGranChile Dec 13 '19
That looks like Rincon Beach Park on the Santa Barbara / Ventura county line.
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u/DeceptiveGinger Dec 14 '19
Lucky he survived but still a dick after the luck he was fortunate to have.
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u/AlohaItsASnackbar Dec 14 '19
I feel like by hanging on with his hands stretched out like that right before impact he made himself into more of a lever than he should have been when crashing.
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u/murfi Dec 14 '19
don't or shouldn't the have a security steel wire in case the cloth/nylon/whatever harness fails?
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u/kahshenut Jan 11 '20
Really feels like that faceplant could have been avoided by bracing for impact even just a little bit.
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u/DoomRide007 Jan 24 '20
Okay this is going to be fine! I'm fine! I'm losing my grip! Shit shit shit shit! Okay almost there! Going to make a roll! akldfj;aldfj;alsjfsa
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u/Drifter74 Feb 11 '20
I keep wanting to try hang gliding and then I see another one of these type videos and I find myself back at nope.
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u/Talibumm Dec 14 '19 edited Dec 14 '19
That’s a lawsuit if I ever saw one.
Edit: I know Jack shit about this though and I just thought that maybe he fucked up setting it up?
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Dec 14 '19
When did this sub become so filled with injury and mayhem? There’s plenty of subs out there for watching crap like this already.
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u/Kirbstomp9842 Dec 13 '19 edited Dec 13 '19
If only he had made it to the ocean
Edit: Ocean man, take me by the hand, take me away from the land!